CivicAccess

trying to finish up

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Michael Lenczner

trying to finish up

I know tracey just added some more sections to the site.

on my side:

1) i think we should keep a splash page before the wiki. that way we
can at some point set up another cms if we want to.

if we don't keep a splash page then people will link to
http://www.civicaccess.ca to go to the wiki. To put a blog in before
that a year later would mean breaking everyone's links to the wiki.

so we should prevent http://www.civicaccess.ca from forwarding
automatically to the wiki.

and 2) we should keep a splash page because many of the people who we
want to become participants of civicaccess have never seen a wiki
before and will be kinda shocked with how unprofessional it seems.
especially because it seems that we're going to have to "go live"
before we get a nicely organized wiki with lots of content.

Steph - can you put a back a temporary splash page? and maybe you or
patrick or someone else can do a lightly designed splash page explain
civicaccess in french + english (link to suggested text below) with a
link to the wiki?

http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/SplashPage (suggested text)

Daniel Haran

Re: trying to finish up

Hi Michael,

Sorry to be negative, but you've touched a couple sore spots for me.

Re: splash page. Can we avoid this? Once launched, we should have a
separation between the wiki as a collaborative space and the site as a
public-facing summary. Links should generally be to the summary rather
than content-free pages. Do we have enough consensus on the summary
that we can push it to a non-wiki page?

Re: French/English page. When you go to a website, your browser sends
a message to a computer (e.g. www.civicaccess.ca) that it wants a file
(/wiki/). Your browser lists what languages you are willing to accept,
in order of preference.

In Internet Explorer, you can see the list of languages by going to
Tools -> Internet Options. Click Languages. With Firefox, Tools ->
Options -> Advanced

The vast majority of people have a browser in their language of
choice. I suggest we auto-detect this and forward to the appropriate
language page. Unless of course people explicitly ask for the other
page - and we could emulate the government's style of having the
language link at the top left.

Cheers,

Daniel.

On 3/25/06, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know tracey just added some more sections to the site.
>
> on my side:
>
> 1) i think we should keep a splash page before the wiki. that way we
> can at some point set up another cms if we want to.
>
> if we don't keep a splash page then people will link to
> http://www.civicaccess.ca to go to the wiki. To put a blog in before
> that a year later would mean breaking everyone's links to the wiki.
>
> so we should prevent http://www.civicaccess.ca from forwarding
> automatically to the wiki.
>
> and 2) we should keep a splash page because many of the people who we
> want to become participants of civicaccess have never seen a wiki
> before and will be kinda shocked with how unprofessional it seems.
> especially because it seems that we're going to have to "go live"
> before we get a nicely organized wiki with lots of content.
>
> Steph - can you put a back a temporary splash page? and maybe you or
> patrick or someone else can do a lightly designed splash page explain
> civicaccess in french + english (link to suggested text below) with a
> link to the wiki?
>
> http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/SplashPage (suggested text)
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>

Michael Lenczner

Re: trying to finish up

that's not negative. that's feedback.

On 3/25/06, Daniel Haran <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> Sorry to be negative, but you've touched a couple sore spots for me.
>
> Re: splash page. Can we avoid this? Once launched, we should have a
> separation between the wiki as a collaborative space and the site as a
> public-facing summary. Links should generally be to the summary rather
> than content-free pages. Do we have enough consensus on the summary
> that we can push it to a non-wiki page?
>

i think we're saying the same thing here. so the "website" would
temporarily be a one page summary. and there will be a link from the
summary to the wiki.

in time, the single website page could turn into a blog - if someone
was interested in taking that on.

or am I misunderstanding you?

> Re: French/English page. When you go to a website, your browser sends
> a message to a computer (e.g. www.civicaccess.ca) that it wants a file
> (/wiki/). Your browser lists what languages you are willing to accept,
> in order of preference.
>
> In Internet Explorer, you can see the list of languages by going to
> Tools -> Internet Options. Click Languages. With Firefox, Tools ->
> Options -> Advanced
>
> The vast majority of people have a browser in their language of
> choice. I suggest we auto-detect this and forward to the appropriate
> language page. Unless of course people explicitly ask for the other
> page - and we could emulate the government's style of having the
> language link at the top left.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Daniel.
>
> On 3/25/06, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I know tracey just added some more sections to the site.
> >
> > on my side:
> >
> > 1) i think we should keep a splash page before the wiki. that way we
> > can at some point set up another cms if we want to.
> >
> > if we don't keep a splash page then people will link to
> > http://www.civicaccess.ca to go to the wiki. To put a blog in before
> > that a year later would mean breaking everyone's links to the wiki.
> >
> > so we should prevent http://www.civicaccess.ca from forwarding
> > automatically to the wiki.
> >
> > and 2) we should keep a splash page because many of the people who we
> > want to become participants of civicaccess have never seen a wiki
> > before and will be kinda shocked with how unprofessional it seems.
> > especially because it seems that we're going to have to "go live"
> > before we get a nicely organized wiki with lots of content.
> >
> > Steph - can you put a back a temporary splash page? and maybe you or
> > patrick or someone else can do a lightly designed splash page explain
> > civicaccess in french + english (link to suggested text below) with a
> > link to the wiki?
> >
> > http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/SplashPage (suggested text)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>

Daniel Haran

Re: trying to finish up

On 3/26/06, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> that's not negative. that's feedback.

:)

> On 3/25/06, Daniel Haran <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > Sorry to be negative, but you've touched a couple sore spots for me.
> >
> > Re: splash page. Can we avoid this? Once launched, we should have a
> > separation between the wiki as a collaborative space and the site as a
> > public-facing summary. Links should generally be to the summary rather
> > than content-free pages. Do we have enough consensus on the summary
> > that we can push it to a non-wiki page?
> >
> i think we're saying the same thing here. so the "website" would
> temporarily be a one page summary. and there will be a link from the
> summary to the wiki.
>
> in time, the single website page could turn into a blog - if someone
> was interested in taking that on.
>
> or am I misunderstanding you?

No misunderstanding, and a blog would be great!

Patrick Dinnen

Re: trying to finish up

In reply to this post by Michael Lenczner

I agree that an initial page to explain a little about what the site/a
wiki is would be helpful (lets say landing page, rather than using the S
word with it's information-free connotations). Here's a 10 minute design
on how that might look:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=118104671&size=o

Thoughts?

Patrick

Michael Lenczner wrote:

Tracey P. Lauriault-2

Re: trying to finish up

:-)

someday someone will have to explain to be the politics of the s word!

Patrick Dinnen wrote:

I agree that an initial page to explain a little about what the site/a 
wiki is would be helpful (lets say landing page, rather than using the S 
word with it's information-free connotations). Here's a 10 minute design 
on how that might look:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=118104671&size=o

Thoughts?

Patrick

Michael Lenczner wrote:

I know tracey just added some more sections to the site.

on my side:

1) i think we should keep a splash page before the wiki.   that way we
can at some point set up another cms if we want to.

if we don't keep a splash page then people will link to
http://www.civicaccess.ca to go to the wiki.  To put a blog in before
that a year later would mean breaking everyone's links to the wiki.

so we should prevent http://www.civicaccess.ca from forwarding
automatically to the wiki.

and 2) we should keep a splash page because many of the people who we
want to become participants of civicaccess have never seen a wiki
before and will be kinda shocked with how unprofessional it seems. 
especially because it seems that we're going to have to "go live"
before we get a nicely organized wiki with lots of content.

Steph - can you put a back a temporary splash page?  and maybe you or
patrick or someone else can do a lightly designed splash page explain
civicaccess in french + english (link to suggested text below) with a
link to the wiki?

http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/SplashPage (suggested text)

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca


_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca

Michael Lenczner

Re: trying to finish up

looks good.

I would skip the maple leave, though. seems . . . gratuitous, to a
quebecer at least. and it kinda looks like we might be "official",
gov't funded or something.

On 3/26/06, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote:

> :-)
>
> someday someone will have to explain to be the politics of the s word!
>
>
>
> Patrick Dinnen wrote:
> I agree that an initial page to explain a little about what the site/a
> wiki is would be helpful (lets say landing page, rather than using the S
> word with it's information-free connotations). Here's a 10 minute design
> on how that might look:
> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=118104671&size=o
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Patrick
>
> Michael Lenczner wrote:
>
>
> I know tracey just added some more sections to the site.
>
> on my side:
>
> 1) i think we should keep a splash page before the wiki. that way we
> can at some point set up another cms if we want to.
>
> if we don't keep a splash page then people will link to
> http://www.civicaccess.ca to go to the wiki. To put a blog in before
> that a year later would mean breaking everyone's links to the wiki.
>
> so we should prevent http://www.civicaccess.ca from forwarding
> automatically to the wiki.
>
> and 2) we should keep a splash page because many of the people who we
> want to become participants of civicaccess have never seen a wiki
> before and will be kinda shocked with how unprofessional it seems.
> especially because it seems that we're going to have to "go live"
> before we get a nicely organized wiki with lots of content.
>
> Steph - can you put a back a temporary splash page? and maybe you or
> patrick or someone else can do a lightly designed splash page explain
> civicaccess in french + english (link to suggested text below) with a
> link to the wiki?
>
> http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/SplashPage (suggested
> text)
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>
>
>

Patrick Dinnen

Re: trying to finish up

On the maple leaf, I'm not a flag waving sort myself either. But the
thinking here was that without some indicator it's not at all apparent
that the group/site relates to Canadian data specifically. The leaf
seemed like a super quick and clear way of communicating that visually.

Personally I'm much more bothered by the use of the term 'Splash page'
than I am about using the flag ;-) But whatever people think.

Patrick

Michael Lenczner wrote:

> looks good.
>
> I would skip the maple leave, though. seems . . . gratuitous, to a
> quebecer at least. and it kinda looks like we might be "official",
> gov't funded or something.
>
> On 3/26/06, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> :-)
>>
>> someday someone will have to explain to be the politics of the s word!
>>
>>
>>
>> Patrick Dinnen wrote:
>> I agree that an initial page to explain a little about what the site/a
>> wiki is would be helpful (lets say landing page, rather than using the S
>> word with it's information-free connotations). Here's a 10 minute design
>> on how that might look:
>> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=118104671&size=o
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> Michael Lenczner wrote:
>>
>>
>> I know tracey just added some more sections to the site.
>>
>> on my side:
>>
>> 1) i think we should keep a splash page before the wiki. that way we
>> can at some point set up another cms if we want to.
>>
>> if we don't keep a splash page then people will link to
>> http://www.civicaccess.ca to go to the wiki. To put a blog in before
>> that a year later would mean breaking everyone's links to the wiki.
>>
>> so we should prevent http://www.civicaccess.ca from forwarding
>> automatically to the wiki.
>>
>> and 2) we should keep a splash page because many of the people who we
>> want to become participants of civicaccess have never seen a wiki
>> before and will be kinda shocked with how unprofessional it seems.
>> especially because it seems that we're going to have to "go live"
>> before we get a nicely organized wiki with lots of content.
>>
>> Steph - can you put a back a temporary splash page? and maybe you or
>> patrick or someone else can do a lightly designed splash page explain
>> civicaccess in french + english (link to suggested text below) with a
>> link to the wiki?
>>
>> http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/SplashPage (suggested
>> text)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>

Michael Lenczner

Re: trying to finish up

I'm worried that it's going to alienate lots of potential quebec
participants. Dèja le plupart de la site est en Anglais ansi que les
titres des pages. Aussi, le mailing list ca se passe presque seulment
en Anglais. Je ne pense pas que on a besoin de leur donner un autre
raison à croire que le site n'est pas crèer pour eux.

also - instead of COACID can we use Civic Access / Accès Civique?
Both for the title and in the text? I changed the corresponding text
in the wiki (on the front page).

In general, we probably should never use COACID or the french version,
CALIDC. Just CivicAccess.ca or AccesCivique.ca

On 3/26/06, Patrick Dinnen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On the maple leaf, I'm not a flag waving sort myself either. But the
> thinking here was that without some indicator it's not at all apparent
> that the group/site relates to Canadian data specifically. The leaf
> seemed like a super quick and clear way of communicating that visually.
>
> Personally I'm much more bothered by the use of the term 'Splash page'
> than I am about using the flag ;-) But whatever people think.
>
> Patrick
>
> Michael Lenczner wrote:
> > looks good.
> >
> > I would skip the maple leave, though. seems . . . gratuitous, to a
> > quebecer at least. and it kinda looks like we might be "official",
> > gov't funded or something.
> >
> > On 3/26/06, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> :-)
> >>
> >> someday someone will have to explain to be the politics of the s word!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Patrick Dinnen wrote:
> >> I agree that an initial page to explain a little about what the site/a
> >> wiki is would be helpful (lets say landing page, rather than using the S
> >> word with it's information-free connotations). Here's a 10 minute design
> >> on how that might look:
> >> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=118104671&size=o
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> Patrick
> >>
> >> Michael Lenczner wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I know tracey just added some more sections to the site.
> >>
> >> on my side:
> >>
> >> 1) i think we should keep a splash page before the wiki. that way we
> >> can at some point set up another cms if we want to.
> >>
> >> if we don't keep a splash page then people will link to
> >> http://www.civicaccess.ca to go to the wiki. To put a blog in before
> >> that a year later would mean breaking everyone's links to the wiki.
> >>
> >> so we should prevent http://www.civicaccess.ca from forwarding
> >> automatically to the wiki.
> >>
> >> and 2) we should keep a splash page because many of the people who we
> >> want to become participants of civicaccess have never seen a wiki
> >> before and will be kinda shocked with how unprofessional it seems.
> >> especially because it seems that we're going to have to "go live"
> >> before we get a nicely organized wiki with lots of content.
> >>
> >> Steph - can you put a back a temporary splash page? and maybe you or
> >> patrick or someone else can do a lightly designed splash page explain
> >> civicaccess in french + english (link to suggested text below) with a
> >> link to the wiki?
> >>
> >> http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/SplashPage (suggested
> >> text)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>

Gurstein, Michael

Re: trying to finish up

In reply to this post by Michael Lenczner

Just back and catching up with my mail and so I'm not sure if it has
been mentioned but it might be useful to have some links to some related
and friendly organizations where the use of Civicaccess info is of
significant and visible benefit but which because of its unavailability
in Canada, these activities are not feasible...

In that context I would pro-offer the work of my friend Neil Richman and
his colleagues at UCLA -- Neighborhood Knowledge LA
http://nkla.sppsr.ucla.edu/ and Alan Toy of LILA http://lila.ucla.edu/ .
In both cases they have mentioned to me that their projects are more or
less impossible in Canada (they've checked) because of the cost of
purchasing the digitized base maps which would allow for their community
based GIS projects to be developed.

MG

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Patrick
Dinnen
Sent: March 26, 2006 3:37 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] trying to finish up

I agree that an initial page to explain a little about what the site/a
wiki is would be helpful (lets say landing page, rather than using the S

word with it's information-free connotations). Here's a 10 minute design

on how that might look:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=118104671&size=o

Thoughts?

Patrick

Michael Lenczner wrote:

http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.c
a
>

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email]
http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.c
a

Daniel Haran

Re: trying to finish up

In reply to this post by Michael Lenczner

I've put up a mock up of the front page as I would see it.
http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/FrontPageMockup

Eventually, a front page could have just the first paragraph, with
news (+RSS feed) and *ways for people to get involved*. That last
point is probably the most important thing from my perspective. What
do we want this site to accomplish? A lot of decisions flow very
easily once that's clear.

Oh, and I made up a campaign. It's a devious ploy to get people
thinking about a census data campaign. (I think it's a great idea).

Disclaimers:
1- It's ugly. I never pretended to be a designer :)
2- The information is mostly based on our About page, but I've changed
important parts (e.g. removing the non-commercial objective. I think
data should be free, and I think that was the consensus on the list so
far)
3- I didn't translate the page, as I think these should be separate
English/French pages as mentioned earlier. I can translate if/once it
has consensus.

Cheers,

Daniel.

On 3/26/06, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm worried that it's going to alienate lots of potential quebec
> participants. Dèja le plupart de la site est en Anglais ansi que les
> titres des pages. Aussi, le mailing list ca se passe presque seulment
> en Anglais. Je ne pense pas que on a besoin de leur donner un autre
> raison à croire que le site n'est pas crèer pour eux.
>
> also - instead of COACID can we use Civic Access / Accès Civique?
> Both for the title and in the text? I changed the corresponding text
> in the wiki (on the front page).
>
> In general, we probably should never use COACID or the french version,
> CALIDC. Just CivicAccess.ca or AccesCivique.ca
>
>
> On 3/26/06, Patrick Dinnen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On the maple leaf, I'm not a flag waving sort myself either. But the
> > thinking here was that without some indicator it's not at all apparent
> > that the group/site relates to Canadian data specifically. The leaf
> > seemed like a super quick and clear way of communicating that visually.
> >
> > Personally I'm much more bothered by the use of the term 'Splash page'
> > than I am about using the flag ;-) But whatever people think.
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> > Michael Lenczner wrote:
> > > looks good.
> > >
> > > I would skip the maple leave, though. seems . . . gratuitous, to a
> > > quebecer at least. and it kinda looks like we might be "official",
> > > gov't funded or something.
> > >
> > > On 3/26/06, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> :-)
> > >>
> > >> someday someone will have to explain to be the politics of the s word!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Patrick Dinnen wrote:
> > >> I agree that an initial page to explain a little about what the site/a
> > >> wiki is would be helpful (lets say landing page, rather than using the S
> > >> word with it's information-free connotations). Here's a 10 minute design
> > >> on how that might look:
> > >> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=118104671&size=o
> > >>
> > >> Thoughts?
> > >>
> > >> Patrick
> > >>
> > >> Michael Lenczner wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I know tracey just added some more sections to the site.
> > >>
> > >> on my side:
> > >>
> > >> 1) i think we should keep a splash page before the wiki. that way we
> > >> can at some point set up another cms if we want to.
> > >>
> > >> if we don't keep a splash page then people will link to
> > >> http://www.civicaccess.ca to go to the wiki. To put a blog in before
> > >> that a year later would mean breaking everyone's links to the wiki.
> > >>
> > >> so we should prevent http://www.civicaccess.ca from forwarding
> > >> automatically to the wiki.
> > >>
> > >> and 2) we should keep a splash page because many of the people who we
> > >> want to become participants of civicaccess have never seen a wiki
> > >> before and will be kinda shocked with how unprofessional it seems.
> > >> especially because it seems that we're going to have to "go live"
> > >> before we get a nicely organized wiki with lots of content.
> > >>
> > >> Steph - can you put a back a temporary splash page? and maybe you or
> > >> patrick or someone else can do a lightly designed splash page explain
> > >> civicaccess in french + english (link to suggested text below) with a
> > >> link to the wiki?
> > >>
> > >> http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/SplashPage (suggested
> > >> text)
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>

Patrick Dinnen

Re: trying to finish up

I really like Daniel's proposed front page text. I like the clear
'manifesto' and call to action sections.

I still feel it would be useful to have a non-wiki front page for the
site (not sure if this was your thought or not Daniel?). We're told not
to judge books by their covers', but we still do it all the time. I
wouldn't want people to be scared off by the wiki-look of the site
before they get an idea what it's about.

Regarding the maple leaf: I agree, inclusivity is crucial, but I'm
really not interested in figuring out how to navigate subtle
intra-national politics of symbolism. Just as long as the first page
makes it clear that this is a Canadian thing, how it's done is
unimportant to me. Whatever people think works best works with me.

Patrick

Daniel Haran wrote:

> I've put up a mock up of the front page as I would see it.
> http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/FrontPageMockup
>
> Eventually, a front page could have just the first paragraph, with
> news (+RSS feed) and *ways for people to get involved*. That last
> point is probably the most important thing from my perspective. What
> do we want this site to accomplish? A lot of decisions flow very
> easily once that's clear.
>
> Oh, and I made up a campaign. It's a devious ploy to get people
> thinking about a census data campaign. (I think it's a great idea).
>
> Disclaimers:
> 1- It's ugly. I never pretended to be a designer :)
> 2- The information is mostly based on our About page, but I've changed
> important parts (e.g. removing the non-commercial objective. I think
> data should be free, and I think that was the consensus on the list so
> far)
> 3- I didn't translate the page, as I think these should be separate
> English/French pages as mentioned earlier. I can translate if/once it
> has consensus.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Daniel.
>
> On 3/26/06, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'm worried that it's going to alienate lots of potential quebec
>> participants. Dèja le plupart de la site est en Anglais ansi que les
>> titres des pages. Aussi, le mailing list ca se passe presque seulment
>> en Anglais. Je ne pense pas que on a besoin de leur donner un autre
>> raison à croire que le site n'est pas crèer pour eux.
>>
>> also - instead of COACID can we use Civic Access / Accès Civique?
>> Both for the title and in the text? I changed the corresponding text
>> in the wiki (on the front page).
>>
>> In general, we probably should never use COACID or the french version,
>> CALIDC. Just CivicAccess.ca or AccesCivique.ca
>>
>>
>> On 3/26/06, Patrick Dinnen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On the maple leaf, I'm not a flag waving sort myself either. But the
>>> thinking here was that without some indicator it's not at all apparent
>>> that the group/site relates to Canadian data specifically. The leaf
>>> seemed like a super quick and clear way of communicating that visually.
>>>
>>> Personally I'm much more bothered by the use of the term 'Splash page'
>>> than I am about using the flag ;-) But whatever people think.
>>>
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>> Michael Lenczner wrote:
>>>> looks good.
>>>>
>>>> I would skip the maple leave, though. seems . . . gratuitous, to a
>>>> quebecer at least. and it kinda looks like we might be "official",
>>>> gov't funded or something.
>>>>
>>>> On 3/26/06, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> someday someone will have to explain to be the politics of the s word!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick Dinnen wrote:
>>>>> I agree that an initial page to explain a little about what the site/a
>>>>> wiki is would be helpful (lets say landing page, rather than using the S
>>>>> word with it's information-free connotations). Here's a 10 minute design
>>>>> on how that might look:
>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=118104671&size=o
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Lenczner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I know tracey just added some more sections to the site.
>>>>>
>>>>> on my side:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) i think we should keep a splash page before the wiki. that way we
>>>>> can at some point set up another cms if we want to.
>>>>>
>>>>> if we don't keep a splash page then people will link to
>>>>> http://www.civicaccess.ca to go to the wiki. To put a blog in before
>>>>> that a year later would mean breaking everyone's links to the wiki.
>>>>>
>>>>> so we should prevent http://www.civicaccess.ca from forwarding
>>>>> automatically to the wiki.
>>>>>
>>>>> and 2) we should keep a splash page because many of the people who we
>>>>> want to become participants of civicaccess have never seen a wiki
>>>>> before and will be kinda shocked with how unprofessional it seems.
>>>>> especially because it seems that we're going to have to "go live"
>>>>> before we get a nicely organized wiki with lots of content.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steph - can you put a back a temporary splash page? and maybe you or
>>>>> patrick or someone else can do a lightly designed splash page explain
>>>>> civicaccess in french + english (link to suggested text below) with a
>>>>> link to the wiki?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/SplashPage (suggested
>>>>> text)
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>

Michael Lenczner

Re: trying to finish up

On 3/26/06, Patrick Dinnen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I really like Daniel's proposed front page text. I like the clear
> 'manifesto' and call to action sections.
>
> I still feel it would be useful to have a non-wiki front page for the
> site (not sure if this was your thought or not Daniel?). We're told not
> to judge books by their covers', but we still do it all the time. I
> wouldn't want people to be scared off by the wiki-look of the site
> before they get an idea what it's about.

I know that tracey and I strongly support a non-wiki front page.

and I like Daniel's version too. especially the 4 links.

I modified the version slightly. Including removing the part about it
hurting business efficiency. I have no problem with that being a
corollary argument, but I dont' think it belongs on our front page. i
tried to observe Hugh's comment that he found the mission of
CivicAccess too difficult to understand.

So I changed the main paragraph from:
'''Citizens for Open Access to Civic Information and Data (COACID)'''
is being formed out of a belief that open civic information and data
are necessary for being an engaged citizen in an "information
society". We want to encourage government to use and support the
development of online technologies to enable citizens to easily find
public information and data and to develop policies to make them
freely accessible in open formats by citizens."

to:

"Citizens for Open Access to Civic Information and Data (COACID) is
being formed out of a belief that open civic information and data are
necessary for being an engaged citizen in an "information society". We
want to encourage all levels of government to make civic information
and data freely accessible in open formats to citizens."

Is that cool? I know that we want some other stuff to happen as well,
but I think this is the crux of it.

I made the same changed on the corresponding "about" page. I didn't
touch the french version so if someone wants to translate that one
modified sentence that would be great.
>
> Regarding the maple leaf: I agree, inclusivity is crucial, but I'm
> really not interested in figuring out how to navigate subtle
> intra-national politics of symbolism. Just as long as the first page
> makes it clear that this is a Canadian thing, how it's done is
> unimportant to me. Whatever people think works best works with me.

hmm. no real solutions to propose. anyone else?

>
> Patrick
>
> Daniel Haran wrote:
> > I've put up a mock up of the front page as I would see it.
> > http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/FrontPageMockup
> >
> > Eventually, a front page could have just the first paragraph, with
> > news (+RSS feed) and *ways for people to get involved*. That last
> > point is probably the most important thing from my perspective. What
> > do we want this site to accomplish? A lot of decisions flow very
> > easily once that's clear.
> >
> > Oh, and I made up a campaign. It's a devious ploy to get people
> > thinking about a census data campaign. (I think it's a great idea).
> >
> > Disclaimers:
> > 1- It's ugly. I never pretended to be a designer :)
> > 2- The information is mostly based on our About page, but I've changed
> > important parts (e.g. removing the non-commercial objective. I think
> > data should be free, and I think that was the consensus on the list so
> > far)
> > 3- I didn't translate the page, as I think these should be separate
> > English/French pages as mentioned earlier. I can translate if/once it
> > has consensus.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Daniel.
> >
> > On 3/26/06, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> I'm worried that it's going to alienate lots of potential quebec
> >> participants. Dèja le plupart de la site est en Anglais ansi que les
> >> titres des pages. Aussi, le mailing list ca se passe presque seulment
> >> en Anglais. Je ne pense pas que on a besoin de leur donner un autre
> >> raison à croire que le site n'est pas crèer pour eux.
> >>
> >> also - instead of COACID can we use Civic Access / Accès Civique?
> >> Both for the title and in the text? I changed the corresponding text
> >> in the wiki (on the front page).
> >>
> >> In general, we probably should never use COACID or the french version,
> >> CALIDC. Just CivicAccess.ca or AccesCivique.ca
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/26/06, Patrick Dinnen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> On the maple leaf, I'm not a flag waving sort myself either. But the
> >>> thinking here was that without some indicator it's not at all apparent
> >>> that the group/site relates to Canadian data specifically. The leaf
> >>> seemed like a super quick and clear way of communicating that visually.
> >>>
> >>> Personally I'm much more bothered by the use of the term 'Splash page'
> >>> than I am about using the flag ;-) But whatever people think.
> >>>
> >>> Patrick
> >>>
> >>> Michael Lenczner wrote:
> >>>> looks good.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would skip the maple leave, though. seems . . . gratuitous, to a
> >>>> quebecer at least. and it kinda looks like we might be "official",
> >>>> gov't funded or something.
> >>>>
> >>>> On 3/26/06, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>> :-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> someday someone will have to explain to be the politics of the s word!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Patrick Dinnen wrote:
> >>>>> I agree that an initial page to explain a little about what the site/a
> >>>>> wiki is would be helpful (lets say landing page, rather than using the S
> >>>>> word with it's information-free connotations). Here's a 10 minute design
> >>>>> on how that might look:
> >>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=118104671&size=o
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thoughts?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Patrick
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael Lenczner wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I know tracey just added some more sections to the site.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> on my side:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1) i think we should keep a splash page before the wiki. that way we
> >>>>> can at some point set up another cms if we want to.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> if we don't keep a splash page then people will link to
> >>>>> http://www.civicaccess.ca to go to the wiki. To put a blog in before
> >>>>> that a year later would mean breaking everyone's links to the wiki.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> so we should prevent http://www.civicaccess.ca from forwarding
> >>>>> automatically to the wiki.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> and 2) we should keep a splash page because many of the people who we
> >>>>> want to become participants of civicaccess have never seen a wiki
> >>>>> before and will be kinda shocked with how unprofessional it seems.
> >>>>> especially because it seems that we're going to have to "go live"
> >>>>> before we get a nicely organized wiki with lots of content.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steph - can you put a back a temporary splash page? and maybe you or
> >>>>> patrick or someone else can do a lightly designed splash page explain
> >>>>> civicaccess in french + english (link to suggested text below) with a
> >>>>> link to the wiki?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/SplashPage (suggested
> >>>>> text)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>

Robin Millette

Re: trying to finish up

Hello,

On 3/26/06, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/26/06, Patrick Dinnen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I really like Daniel's proposed front page text. I like the clear
> > 'manifesto' and call to action sections.
> >
> > I still feel it would be useful to have a non-wiki front page for the
> > site (not sure if this was your thought or not Daniel?). We're told not
> > to judge books by their covers', but we still do it all the time. I
> > wouldn't want people to be scared off by the wiki-look of the site
> > before they get an idea what it's about.
>
> I know that tracey and I strongly support a non-wiki front page.

At FACIL, we're also using moinmoin for our wiki, but our website
isn't a wiki. Actually, it's a static copy of the wiki, without all
the wiki buttons and navigation and a slightly different look. Each
page of the static site is copied 24h hours after it's changed on the
wiki, automatically. All pages of the wiki are editable by anyone.

I could adapt gow (the little piece of code bridging moinmoin and the
FACIL website) for civic access if you think it would help.

See http://facil.qc.ca/ and http://wiki.facil.qc.ca/ to see what I'm
talking about. Yes, gow needs a little upgrade to easily support both
official languages, it's on my todo.

P.S. may I politely ask we keep our quotes shorter in replies to this list?

--
Robin 'oqp' Millette : http://rym.waglo.com/
Président de FACIL : http://facil.qc.ca/

Michael Lenczner

Re: trying to finish up

On 3/26/06, Robin Millette <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On 3/26/06, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 3/26/06, Patrick Dinnen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I really like Daniel's proposed front page text. I like the clear
> > > 'manifesto' and call to action sections.
> > >
> > > I still feel it would be useful to have a non-wiki front page for the
> > > site (not sure if this was your thought or not Daniel?). We're told not
> > > to judge books by their covers', but we still do it all the time. I
> > > wouldn't want people to be scared off by the wiki-look of the site
> > > before they get an idea what it's about.
> >
> > I know that tracey and I strongly support a non-wiki front page.
>
> At FACIL, we're also using moinmoin for our wiki, but our website
> isn't a wiki. Actually, it's a static copy of the wiki, without all
> the wiki buttons and navigation and a slightly different look. Each
> page of the static site is copied 24h hours after it's changed on the
> wiki, automatically. All pages of the wiki are editable by anyone.
>
> I could adapt gow (the little piece of code bridging moinmoin and the
> FACIL website) for civic access if you think it would help.
>
> See http://facil.qc.ca/ and http://wiki.facil.qc.ca/ to see what I'm
> talking about. Yes, gow needs a little upgrade to easily support both
> official languages, it's on my todo.
>

i think this is cool - and it does a great job of freeing wiki
functionality from wiki UI - but I'm worried that it is *even*more*
confusing that having a wiki. How do you explain it to people that we
want to get involved? "Go change things on the site but you have to
make changes on the wiki, which actually isn't the site or really look
like the site, but changes will be synchorized to the "real" site
within 24 hours?" Considering 1/2 of our possible don't know what a
wiki is I would recommend against for now.

Just my opinion, though.

> P.S. may I politely ask we keep our quotes shorter in replies to this list?
>

sorry :-(
> --
> Robin 'oqp' Millette : http://rym.waglo.com/
> Président de FACIL : http://facil.qc.ca/
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>

Daniel Haran

Re: trying to finish up

In reply to this post by Robin Millette

On 3/26/06, Robin Millette <[hidden email]> wrote:
> P.S. may I politely ask we keep our quotes shorter in replies to this list?

Heh, it just occured to me that gmail has changed my habits in that
regard. It collapses parts of a thread, and "- Show quoted text -"
doesn't give an indication of how long that will look like for others.

Oops. I'll keep that in mind :)

Daniel.

PS: If anyone wants gmail invites, I'm sure those of us that use it have plenty

Tracey P. Lauriault-2

Re: trying to finish up

At work we use a wiki called confluence - I know it is not free nor open
source - please do not burn me at the stake for that!

But we needed something that was easy for the lowest common denomitor in
our lab to use (Office admin and the over 65years crowd), we wanted it
to look nice, to be used by 100 researchers, to have public and private
functionality, content management and we wanted navigation to be obvious
-
https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Cybercartography+and+the+New+Economy.

Now i am not saying this is what we want or that this is perfect. But,
I would love to see potential for embelishment in our thing (and would
even be willing to give it a try if i could get some coaching!) , and
also navigation made easy. I am getting lost in ours and find that i go
- to recent changes - instead of our resources or nav section.

Most of you here are really savvy movers and shakers in these
environments, but not all who come to civicaccess will be, and of course
we do not have to aim for the lowest skilled user, but it would be
really great to be open, understood, to easily navigate & find stuff,
clear, to have adding content easy and to have a little esthetic je ne
s'ais quoi happening. And of course getting the data out there!

But you know what! We are getting there and there are some good minds
around the fire so i suspect that we will soon be there.

cheers
t

Cory Horner

Re: trying to finish up

In reply to this post by Patrick Dinnen

>Regarding the maple leaf: I agree, inclusivity is crucial, but I'm
>really not interested in figuring out how to navigate subtle
>intra-national politics of symbolism. Just as long as the first page
>makes it clear that this is a Canadian thing, how it's done is
>unimportant to me. Whatever people think works best works with me.
>
>
One option (potentially ugly) is to plaster the Canadian and provincial
flags on the page, assuming the issue is the absence of the Quebec flag,
rather than the presence of the Canadian one.

The front page communicated the message clearly to me, with one
outstanding question: What is civic data? (cite examples?)

Cheers,
Cory.

Daniel Haran

Re: trying to finish up

On 3/26/06, Cory Horner <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> >Regarding the maple leaf: I agree, inclusivity is crucial, but I'm
> >really not interested in figuring out how to navigate subtle
> >intra-national politics of symbolism. Just as long as the first page
> >makes it clear that this is a Canadian thing, how it's done is
> >unimportant to me. Whatever people think works best works with me.
> >
> >
> One option (potentially ugly) is to plaster the Canadian and provincial
> flags on the page, assuming the issue is the absence of the Quebec flag,
> rather than the presence of the Canadian one.

How about a map of Canada? I know we don't concentrate solely on GIS
data- it's just that if we put in a fleur-de-lys in the mix, we might
upset some federalists. Canadian identity politics are like a
minefield :)

Like I said, I'm no designer.. anyone here want to think up / draw
different options?

Michael Lenczner

Re: trying to finish up

map = great idea! it even has a good association with our cause.

On 3/26/06, Daniel Haran <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/26/06, Cory Horner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >Regarding the maple leaf: I agree, inclusivity is crucial, but I'm
> > >really not interested in figuring out how to navigate subtle
> > >intra-national politics of symbolism. Just as long as the first page
> > >makes it clear that this is a Canadian thing, how it's done is
> > >unimportant to me. Whatever people think works best works with me.
> > >
> > >
> > One option (potentially ugly) is to plaster the Canadian and provincial
> > flags on the page, assuming the issue is the absence of the Quebec flag,
> > rather than the presence of the Canadian one.
>
> How about a map of Canada? I know we don't concentrate solely on GIS
> data- it's just that if we put in a fleur-de-lys in the mix, we might
> upset some federalists. Canadian identity politics are like a
> minefield :)
>
> Like I said, I'm no designer.. anyone here want to think up / draw
> different options?
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>