Canada Census on line

[Richard Houston]

Hey all,

Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I would
pass it on.

Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
When I tried to get started I got this

"Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this site

The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this site.

To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To download
the required software. If you do not wish to download a new browser, you
can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by mail in the
envelope provided."

So I called the help desk. I asked them why I get this messages and that
I met all the requirements with one small exception. I was on Linux.
I was told that Linux was not supported and I would have to use Windows
or Mac to access the site. I asked him why this was and the help desk guy
told me that as Linux was not all that popular so it was not supported
and would not likely be supported anytime soon. I took some time to try
and educate this gentleman about how the Internet should not have a
specific operating system requirement but I don't think he was really
listening or cared.

Is there any one I can contact on this in the government or is there a
anything the group can do to bring open standers argument to Census
Canada's website? As this is census update time I am sure that there are
other Linux users out there that are having issues. I am not pushing a
Linux agenda here but I am pushing for open standards for the government
of Canada's website.

I know the group is just starting to get going but is this maybe a good
starting point for some action?

If not any help in pointing me in the direction of someone I can contact
to complain would be much appreciated.

+------------------------------------+
Best regards,
-Richard Houston
-R.L.H.  Consulting
-E-Mail  [hidden email]
-WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
-Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/

[Tracey P. Lauriault-2]

Russell can you help Richard out? Could you share on your knowledge on
the list regarding this question?

Russell is with - Getting Open Source Logic INto Governments (GOSLING)
see his bio on the wiki - http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/RussellMcOrmond

Do other people on the list work on this?

 
Richard Houston wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I would
> pass it on.
>
> Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
> When I tried to get started I got this
>
> "Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this site
>
> The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this site.
>
> To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To download
> the required software. If you do not wish to download a new browser, you
> can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by mail in the
> envelope provided."
>
> So I called the help desk. I asked them why I get this messages and that
> I met all the requirements with one small exception. I was on Linux.
> I was told that Linux was not supported and I would have to use Windows
> or Mac to access the site. I asked him why this was and the help desk guy
> told me that as Linux was not all that popular so it was not supported
> and would not likely be supported anytime soon. I took some time to try
> and educate this gentleman about how the Internet should not have a
> specific operating system requirement but I don't think he was really
> listening or cared.
>
> Is there any one I can contact on this in the government or is there a
> anything the group can do to bring open standers argument to Census
> Canada's website? As this is census update time I am sure that there are
> other Linux users out there that are having issues. I am not pushing a
> Linux agenda here but I am pushing for open standards for the government
> of Canada's website.
>
> I know the group is just starting to get going but is this maybe a good
> starting point for some action?
>
> If not any help in pointing me in the direction of someone I can contact
> to complain would be much appreciated.
>
> +------------------------------------+
> Best regards,
> -Richard Houston
> -R.L.H.  Consulting
> -E-Mail  [hidden email]
> -WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
> -Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>
>  

[Robin Millette]

On 5/3/06, Richard Houston <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I would
> pass it on.
>
> Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
> When I tried to get started I got this
>
> "Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this site
>
> The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this site.
>
> To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To download
> the required software. If you do not wish to download a new browser, you
> can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by mail in the
> envelope provided."

It gets worst... Lockheed Martin is behind the technical aspect of the
canadian census, but also for many more countries. They're building a
HUGE database and personaly, I'm not sure I want my data in their
hands. See his for more info and what you can do about it:

http://countmeout.ca/

--
Robin 'oqp' Millette : http://rym.waglo.com/
Président de FACIL : http://facil.qc.ca/

[Robin Millette]

On 5/3/06, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Russell can you help Richard out? Could you share on your knowledge on
> the list regarding this question?
>
> Russell is with - Getting Open Source Logic INto Governments (GOSLING)
> see his bio on the wiki - http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/RussellMcOrmond
>
> Do other people on the list work on this?

FACIL [1] is trying its best in Québec. The CLLAP [2] is starting to
reflect that. Not sure if anyone else from FACIL is on this list, but
I am :)

--
Robin 'oqp' Millette : http://rym.waglo.com/
Président de FACIL : http://facil.qc.ca/

[Robin Millette]

On 5/4/06, Robin Millette <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/3/06, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Russell can you help Richard out? Could you share on your knowledge on
> > the list regarding this question?
> >
> > Russell is with - Getting Open Source Logic INto Governments (GOSLING)
> > see his bio on the wiki - http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/RussellMcOrmond
> >
> > Do other people on the list work on this?
>
> FACIL [1] is trying its best in Québec. The CLLAP [2] is starting to
> reflect that. Not sure if anyone else from FACIL is on this list, but
> I am :)

Doh, forgot the URLs:

[1] http://facil.qc.ca/
[2] http://cllap.qc.ca/

--
Robin 'oqp' Millette : http://rym.waglo.com/
Président de FACIL : http://facil.qc.ca/

[Grignon, Alain]

Richard,

I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe the Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope of CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.

Also, if I may play the devils advocate, Stats Can is providing paper copies to everyone as an alternative. What is important is that the "ability to submit your data" be accessible to all.. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses. Anyone try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order to allow government web services to evolve. Being a public servant myself, I graple with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck between making things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.

Just my thoughts.


Alain Grignon
Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
Ottawa, Ont.
Tel: [phone]
http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: May 3, 2006 10:57 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Canada Census on line

Hey all,

Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I would pass it on.

Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
When I tried to get started I got this

"Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this site

The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this site.

To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To download the required software. If you do not wish to download a new browser, you can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by mail in the envelope provided."

So I called the help desk. I asked them why I get this messages and that I met all the requirements with one small exception. I was on Linux.
I was told that Linux was not supported and I would have to use Windows or Mac to access the site. I asked him why this was and the help desk guy told me that as Linux was not all that popular so it was not supported and would not likely be supported anytime soon. I took some time to try and educate this gentleman about how the Internet should not have a specific operating system requirement but I don't think he was really listening or cared.

Is there any one I can contact on this in the government or is there a anything the group can do to bring open standers argument to Census Canada's website? As this is census update time I am sure that there are other Linux users out there that are having issues. I am not pushing a Linux agenda here but I am pushing for open standards for the government of Canada's website.

I know the group is just starting to get going but is this maybe a good starting point for some action?

If not any help in pointing me in the direction of someone I can contact to complain would be much appreciated.

+------------------------------------+
Best regards,
-Richard Houston
-R.L.H.  Consulting
-E-Mail  [hidden email]
-WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
-Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/






_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca

[Grignon, Alain]

We are trying to start to look more closely at Open Source technologies at NRCan but have no official guidelines in place yet. I also heard there's a group out of PWGSC that are trying to coordinate an interdepartmental approach to intgration of open source in government. Will try to get more info for you.


Alain Grignon
Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
Ottawa, Ont.
Tel: [phone]
http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: May 4, 2006 2:25 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Canada Census on line - GOSLING - Russell

On 5/3/06, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Russell can you help Richard out? Could you share on your knowledge on
> the list regarding this question?
>
> Russell is with - Getting Open Source Logic INto Governments (GOSLING)
> see his bio on the wiki - http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/RussellMcOrmond
>
> Do other people on the list work on this?

FACIL [1] is trying its best in Québec. The CLLAP [2] is starting to reflect that. Not sure if anyone else from FACIL is on this list, but I am :)

--
Robin 'oqp' Millette : http://rym.waglo.com/ Président de FACIL : http://facil.qc.ca/

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca

[Grignon, Alain]

How certain are you that Lockheed is behind it? And if they are, that they are keeping copies of the data for themselves. I would caution.. Be mindfull of what you read.

Just my thoughts


Alain Grignon
Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
Ottawa, Ont.
Tel: [phone]
http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: May 4, 2006 2:22 AM
To: [hidden email]; civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Canada Census on line

On 5/3/06, Richard Houston <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I
> would pass it on.
>
> Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
> When I tried to get started I got this
>
> "Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this
> site
>
> The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this site.
>
> To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To
> download the required software. If you do not wish to download a new
> browser, you can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by
> mail in the envelope provided."

It gets worst... Lockheed Martin is behind the technical aspect of the canadian census, but also for many more countries. They're building a HUGE database and personaly, I'm not sure I want my data in their hands. See his for more info and what you can do about it:

http://countmeout.ca/

--
Robin 'oqp' Millette : http://rym.waglo.com/ Président de FACIL : http://facil.qc.ca/

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca

[Frank Warmerdam]

Grignon, Alain wrote:
> Richard,
>
> I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe the
> Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope of
> CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.

Alain / Richard,

Given my understanding of the Civic Access mandate I also think this
is out of scope.  In my humble opinion, when launching an effort like
Civic Access it is very beneficial to retain a focus on a core mission.

Alain and I are also involved in the Open Source Geospatial Foundation
where "mission creep" has been a bit of an issue. :-)

> Also, if I may play the devils advocate, Stats Can is providing paper
> copies to everyone as an alternative. What is important is that the
> "ability to submit your data" be accessible to all.. That doesn't
> necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses. Anyone
> try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order to allow
> government web services to evolve. Being a public servant myself, I graple
> with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck between making
> things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.

Having said that this isn't an issue that Civic Access should address, I
would like to say browser/os/version specific web applications from
governments, banks, and other organization piss me off to no end.  It makes
my blood boil!  The point of HTTP, HTML, etc is that it doesn't matter
what damn OS/brower/hardware/species is at the other end of the
connection as long as it speaks the standard protocols properly.

I would claim that StatsCan ought to be encouraged to stick to web
standards.  It should be more than sufficient to fill out a bunch of census
forms.  But I just don't think that Civic Access should be taking on that
task.   Lets focus on getting maximal access to the stats can data after
it has been collected!  (well, within the limits of privacy restrictions
of course)

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, [hidden email]
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush    | President OSGF, http://osgeo.org

[Daniel Haran]

Hi Alain,

You're right, this isn't strictly related to civicaccess. What boggles
my mind is why the OS matters at all. Statscan doesn't need to
"support" BeOS or Ubuntu. They need to support web standards - that's
the line we need to draw.

That this is even an issue for Statscan just adds to my perception
that decisions there are made by technically illiterate managers. I'll
venture a guess that other technical people on this list have that
very same impression when they hear about this.

-Daniel.

On 5/4/06, Grignon, Alain <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Richard,
>
> I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe the Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope of CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.
>
> Also, if I may play the devils advocate, Stats Can is providing paper copies to everyone as an alternative. What is important is that the "ability to submit your data" be accessible to all.. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses. Anyone try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order to allow government web services to evolve. Being a public servant myself, I graple with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck between making things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
>
> Alain Grignon
> Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
> Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
> 601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
> Ottawa, Ont.
> Tel: [phone]
> http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/

[Jason Loughead-2]

I went to the site using firefox and konqueror and lo and behold I got the
same message. Then I called up and asked about the system requirements.
It has to be remembered that the help desk people are not highly technical so
making real life analogies is the best way to have them understand the
issues. The first guy I spoke with was very cordial and I told him that the
site checking which operating system I was using was irrelevant if I met all
the technical requirements (SSL v.2 128 bit encryption, java, javascript, and
cookies). I then told the gentleman "What if our public roads had a
requirement that only allowed Ford vehicles to travel on them?" This is about
open standards, and often commercial interests in our system have a vested
interest in locking every product but their own out. He asked me to hold
while connected me with the sysadmin department.

After a few minutes Julie came on the line (before I started any spiel) and
said "Oh, you're one of those! You're trying to protect freedom for users. My
boyfriend is running linux at home." Needless to say I had a very responsive
audience and took full advantage of it. ;) She told me I could fill out the
form with her on the phone, and I told her I could masquerade the browser
identification to lie about my OS. She said that would be like hacking though.
I said "No it would be like me calling you right now and if the government
had a policy of only talking to white people, saying that I was not black to
get service." She thanked me over and over for telling her about this and got
my phone number, email, website (I volunteered http://plug.ca ), and that
someone would get back to me.

I would encourage everyone to call and politely demand the website not check
the Operating System if all other checks are passed. :P

Jason



On Wednesday 03 May 2006 10:55 pm, Richard Houston wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Here is an exchange i am involved with on the CivicAccess mailing list.
> I wanted to post it to the plug list for those of you who maybe
> interested and are not on the civicaccess mailing list.
>
> Thanks
>
> Rich
>
> --------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Canada Census on line - GOSLING -
> Russell From:    "Tracey P. Lauriault" <[hidden email]>
> Date:    Wed, May 3, 2006 10:11 pm
> To:      [hidden email]
>          "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Russell can you help Richard out? Could you share on your knowledge on
> the list regarding this question?
>
> Russell is with - Getting Open Source Logic INto Governments (GOSLING)
> see his bio on the wiki - http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/RussellMcOrmond
>
> Do other people on the list work on this?
>
> Richard Houston wrote:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I would
> > pass it on.
> >
> > Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
> > When I tried to get started I got this
> >
> > "Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this site
> >
> > The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this
>
> site.
>
> > To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To download
> > the required software. If you do not wish to download a new browser, you
> > can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by mail in the
> > envelope provided."
> >
> > So I called the help desk. I asked them why I get this messages and that
> > I met all the requirements with one small exception. I was on Linux.
> > I was told that Linux was not supported and I would have to use Windows
> > or Mac to access the site. I asked him why this was and the help desk guy
> > told me that as Linux was not all that popular so it was not supported
> > and would not likely be supported anytime soon. I took some time to try
> > and educate this gentleman about how the Internet should not have a
> > specific operating system requirement but I don't think he was really
> > listening or cared.
> >
> > Is there any one I can contact on this in the government or is there a
> > anything the group can do to bring open standers argument to Census
> > Canada's website? As this is census update time I am sure that there are
> > other Linux users out there that are having issues. I am not pushing a
> > Linux agenda here but I am pushing for open standards for the government
> > of Canada's website.
> >
> > I know the group is just starting to get going but is this maybe a good
> > starting point for some action?
> >
> > If not any help in pointing me in the direction of someone I can contact
> > to complain would be much appreciated.
> >
> > +------------------------------------+
> > Best regards,
> > -Richard Houston
> > -R.L.H.  Consulting
> > -E-Mail  [hidden email]
> > -WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
> > -Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sparkplug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail2.plug.ca/mailman/listinfo/sparkplug

--
Software shouldn't be your struggle
--
Software shouldn't be your struggle

On Thursday 04 May 2006 10:07 am, Daniel Haran wrote:

> Hi Alain,
>
> You're right, this isn't strictly related to civicaccess. What boggles
> my mind is why the OS matters at all. Statscan doesn't need to
> "support" BeOS or Ubuntu. They need to support web standards - that's
> the line we need to draw.
>
> That this is even an issue for Statscan just adds to my perception
> that decisions there are made by technically illiterate managers. I'll
> venture a guess that other technical people on this list have that
> very same impression when they hear about this.
>
> -Daniel.
>
> On 5/4/06, Grignon, Alain <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Richard,
> >
> > I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe the
> > Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope of
> > CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.
> >
> > Also, if I may play the devils advocate, Stats Can is providing paper
> > copies to everyone as an alternative. What is important is that the
> > "ability to submit your data" be accessible to all.. That doesn't
> > necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses.
> > Anyone try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order to
> > allow government web services to evolve. Being a public servant myself, I
> > graple with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck between
> > making things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.
> >
> > Just my thoughts.
> >
> >
> > Alain Grignon
> > Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
> > Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
> > 601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
> > Ottawa, Ont.
> > Tel: [phone]
> > http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca

--
Software shouldn't be your struggle

[Richard Houston]

Hey Alain,


> I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe the
> Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope of
> CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.

Fair enough.

>
>
> Also, if I may play the devils advocate, Stats Can is providing paper
> copies to everyone as an alternative. What is important is that the
> "ability to submit your data" be accessible to all.. That doesn't
> necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses.
> Anyone try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order to
> allow government web services to evolve.

K, You had me on side right up to here. I would not call making a
website, the web was designed to be the ultimate thin client, work only
with specific browsers and operating systems evolution at all but
devolution. Why should I be punished for choosing a operating system and
or browser that ad-hears to standers when site development can be made to
open standers quite easily from the beginning.

In the future more and more info will become available on line and
possibly in the far future some maybe available only on line. I think the
groups position will have to change at that point.

> Being a public servant myself,
> I graple with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck between
> making things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.
>

I would take issue with the "current technologies" statement. This is a
technology choose that the government is making. It may be easier to go
down one road over another, from the developers point of view, but it is
a bad choose for open access to web site information now and in the
future.

With out going too far off the deep end here, promoting one OS over
another is limiting freedom of choice when comes to choosing to buy a
computer in the future. If you have all these site that only work on
Windows then the reason for using an alternative OS is much less
compelling and could be construed as the government, maybe not
intentionally, promoting one system over another. This is not for the
government to decide.

In the paper world, would we accept being told that we had to use a
specific type of pen with specific type of ink to mark and send in the
paper census forms? To use an analogy based on some of Jason's comments,
what if you were told that you could only travel the Trans Canada with
Ford vehicles? This would never happens as there are many car
manufactures and no one is grotesquely dominant but there would be
massive public out cry.

My wife said to me last night when this thing all started " why do we not
just run windows? Obviously it would be easier for us instead of you
going off on another crusade for open standers".

The last point here is that this is not an Open Source or Linux issue it
is an open standards issue and access to the data.

Maybe the group needs to formulate a policy in the use of "open standard"
for access to information where it relates to government and education.

Thanks for your time all.







+------------------------------------+
Best regards,
-Richard Houston
-R.L.H.  Consulting
-E-Mail  [hidden email]
-WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
-Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/

[Jason Loughead-2]

My turn.

On Thursday 04 May 2006 8:46 am, Grignon, Alain wrote:
> Richard,
>
> I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe the
> Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope of
> CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.

You are way off base here. What makes you think the browser debate doesn't
include open standards on the internet? Word processors and website code are
both simply bits of instructions. When I as a citizen want to fully
participate in government and gathering or submitting data who cares if I am
denied by code on the net or code residing on my computer? The point is I'm
being denied access, period. It's my RIGHT as a citizen of this country to
expect equal access. Read more information on the history of the internet,
TCP/IP, HTTP, the battle fought and won back then are at risk by laisse faire
people who let corporations control our access to information.

> That doesn't
> necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses. Anyone
> try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order to allow
> government web services to evolve. Being a public servant myself, I graple
> with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck between making
> things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.
>

I'm sorry but this paragraph is woefully ignorant. If a browser can an
operating system that is compliant with http 4.1 transitional, and has a
TCP/IP stack it's nobody's business if I made my own operating system from
scratch. You're missing the entire point of standards, it's to ensure
compatability not to be an impediment to technological evolution. The
alternative is going back to using Archie (the University of Minnesota own
this software and has threatened to extract royalty fees from every user), or
Compuserve, or regressing back to unix days when many protocols were created
by each university. In fact this is where TCP/IP came from it's an
amalgamation of 32 different protocols. Previous to this you had to be a
hacker and know byte endianness, and script wrappers between
terminal "standards". This debate is entirely appropraite to open document
formats and access to information. For clarity (and in case you're using BeOS
or Unix, those great unknowns apparently) here is the mission from
CivicAccess's website.

Citizens for Open Access to Civic Information and Data (CivicAccess) is a
group of citizens which believes all levels of government should make civic
information and data accessible at no cost in open formats to their citizens.
We believe this is necessary to allow citizens to fully participate in the
democractic process of an "information society."
Objectives:
To encourage all levels of governments (county, municipal, provincial,
federal) to make civic data and information available to citizens without
restrictions, at no cost, and in useable open formats.
To encourage the development of citizen projects using civic data and
information
Making civic data and information freely available to citizens is important
because:
 Citizen participation in decision-making is fundamental to democracy
 Good decisions are made by informed citizens
 Quality civic data and information are fundamental to keeping citizens
informed in an "information society"
 Taxes have already paid for civic data and information; therefore these
should be made available at no cost to citizens
 Citizen projects using civic data will generate innovative solutions to
social, economic and environmental problems
 Citizen projects using civic data will allow citizens to creatively plan
their communities
 This is what a democracy looks like!

Jason

> Just my thoughts.
>
>
> Alain Grignon
> Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
> Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
> 601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
> Ottawa, Ont.
> Tel: [phone]
> http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: May 3, 2006 10:57
> PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Canada Census on line
>
> Hey all,
>
> Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I would
> pass it on.
>
> Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
> When I tried to get started I got this
>
> "Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this site
>
> The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this site.
>
> To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To download
> the required software. If you do not wish to download a new browser, you
> can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by mail in the envelope
> provided."
>
> So I called the help desk. I asked them why I get this messages and that I
> met all the requirements with one small exception. I was on Linux. I was
> told that Linux was not supported and I would have to use Windows or Mac to
> access the site. I asked him why this was and the help desk guy told me
> that as Linux was not all that popular so it was not supported and would
> not likely be supported anytime soon. I took some time to try and educate
> this gentleman about how the Internet should not have a specific operating
> system requirement but I don't think he was really listening or cared.
>
> Is there any one I can contact on this in the government or is there a
> anything the group can do to bring open standers argument to Census
> Canada's website? As this is census update time I am sure that there are
> other Linux users out there that are having issues. I am not pushing a
> Linux agenda here but I am pushing for open standards for the government of
> Canada's website.
>
> I know the group is just starting to get going but is this maybe a good
> starting point for some action?
>
> If not any help in pointing me in the direction of someone I can contact to
> complain would be much appreciated.
>
> +------------------------------------+
> Best regards,
> -Richard Houston
> -R.L.H.  Consulting
> -E-Mail  [hidden email]
> -WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
> -Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca

--
Software shouldn't be your struggle

[Gordon Campbell]

Afternoon, Richard.

Richard Houston wrote:

Hey Alain,


  

Being a public servant myself,
I graple with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck between
making things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.

    

I would take issue with the "current technologies" statement. This is a
technology choose that the government is making. It may be easier to go
down one road over another, from the developers point of view, but it is
a bad choose for open access to web site information now and in the
future.

  

I especially agree in light of the fact that the site itself is actually using a java backend which is, by definition, cross-platform compatible. I expect it's more a case of laziness on the part of the site's programmer. Never mind the fact that 80% of the office computers here at work (I'm the sysadmin for the Queen's University Physics Department) run some flavour of linux/unix. It's extra work to evaluate all of that, so we'll ignore it.

Cheers,
.....G

[Frank Warmerdam]

Jason Loughead wrote:
> You are way off base here. What makes you think the browser debate doesn't
> include open standards on the internet?
...
> Citizens for Open Access to Civic Information and Data (CivicAccess) is a
> group of citizens which believes all levels of government should make civic
> information and data accessible at no cost in open formats to their citizens.

Jason,

I'm not sure citizens submitting census data falls into Civic Access's
mandate to ensure government makes data accessable for free in open formats.
If datasets were being provided to citizens in an inaccessable form (like
say as .mdb files for instance) then I would see why we would object.   If
if the data download site was IE only, I could see us objecting.  But is
our mandate to ensure that all government services are done according to
open standards?  That is a much broader mandate.

In fact, I would suggest that we would be better off focusing on ensuring
the data is made available under terms that allow us to redistribute and
transform it in preference to making a stink about formats.  As long as we
can get key datasets with the appropriate rights of redistribution we can
fix problems with restrictive formats, though of course we would like to
encourage open standards in distribution formats.

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, [hidden email]
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush    | President OSGF, http://osgeo.org

[Richard Houston]

Hey Gordon,

I suspect you are right on the laziness comments. But the question is
what can and do we do about it.

Maybe we need to have a lobby for a government position on open standers
related to electronic documents and website access. With all the
technology out there now there is no need for any type of lock in with
regards to browsers or operating systems.

I think that this is something that the civicaccess should consider
taking at least a position on. I understand that civicaccess is still
getting it's legs but maybe this one would be a good jumping in poi point
for the group. If we make a public statement and take a position, it
might be what is needed to get the ball rolling to let the government
know that the group is there and ready to move. Just a thought.

Thanks for the comment.





+------------------------------------+
Best regards,
-Richard Houston
-R.L.H.  Consulting
-E-Mail  [hidden email]
-WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
-Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/

> Afternoon, Richard.
>
>
> Richard Houston wrote:
>
>> Hey Alain,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Being a public servant myself,
>>> I graple with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck
>>> between making things accessible and keeping inline with current
>>> technologies.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I would take issue with the "current technologies" statement. This is
>> a technology choose that the government is making. It may be easier to
>> go down one road over another, from the developers point of view, but
>> it is a bad choose for open access to web site information now and in
>> the future.
>>
>>
> I especially agree in light of the fact that the site itself is actually
>  using a java backend which is, by definition, cross-platform
> compatible. I expect it's more a case of laziness on the part of the
> site's programmer. Never mind the fact that 80% of the office computers
> here at work (I'm the sysadmin for the Queen's University Physics
> Department)
> run some flavour of linux/unix. It's extra work to evaluate all of that,
> so we'll ignore it.
>
> Cheers,
> .....G
>
>

[Michael Lenczner]

Hey Jason,

"You are way off base here." and "I'm sorry but this paragraph is
woefully ignorant."

That's a bit harsh.  Please check the etiquette page to see the norms
for the site.  This is not a rough and tumble linux-user group mailing
list.  We have lots of people with lots of different backgrounds,
there are going to be lots of misunderstandings and we've got to keep
things really . . . civil  ;-)

http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/Etiquette

thanks.


On 5/4/06, Jason Loughead <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My turn.
>
> On Thursday 04 May 2006 8:46 am, Grignon, Alain wrote:
> > Richard,
> >
> > I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe the
> > Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope of
> > CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.
>
> You are way off base here. What makes you think the browser debate doesn't
> include open standards on the internet? Word processors and website code are
> both simply bits of instructions. When I as a citizen want to fully
> participate in government and gathering or submitting data who cares if I am
> denied by code on the net or code residing on my computer? The point is I'm
> being denied access, period. It's my RIGHT as a citizen of this country to
> expect equal access. Read more information on the history of the internet,
> TCP/IP, HTTP, the battle fought and won back then are at risk by laisse faire
> people who let corporations control our access to information.
>
> > That doesn't
> > necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses. Anyone
> > try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order to allow
> > government web services to evolve. Being a public servant myself, I graple
> > with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck between making
> > things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.
> >
>
> I'm sorry but this paragraph is woefully ignorant. If a browser can an
> operating system that is compliant with http 4.1 transitional, and has a
> TCP/IP stack it's nobody's business if I made my own operating system from
> scratch. You're missing the entire point of standards, it's to ensure
> compatability not to be an impediment to technological evolution. The
> alternative is going back to using Archie (the University of Minnesota own
> this software and has threatened to extract royalty fees from every user), or
> Compuserve, or regressing back to unix days when many protocols were created
> by each university. In fact this is where TCP/IP came from it's an
> amalgamation of 32 different protocols. Previous to this you had to be a
> hacker and know byte endianness, and script wrappers between
> terminal "standards". This debate is entirely appropraite to open document
> formats and access to information. For clarity (and in case you're using BeOS
> or Unix, those great unknowns apparently) here is the mission from
> CivicAccess's website.
>
> Citizens for Open Access to Civic Information and Data (CivicAccess) is a
> group of citizens which believes all levels of government should make civic
> information and data accessible at no cost in open formats to their citizens.
> We believe this is necessary to allow citizens to fully participate in the
> democractic process of an "information society."
> Objectives:
> To encourage all levels of governments (county, municipal, provincial,
> federal) to make civic data and information available to citizens without
> restrictions, at no cost, and in useable open formats.
> To encourage the development of citizen projects using civic data and
> information
> Making civic data and information freely available to citizens is important
> because:
>  Citizen participation in decision-making is fundamental to democracy
>  Good decisions are made by informed citizens
>  Quality civic data and information are fundamental to keeping citizens
> informed in an "information society"
>  Taxes have already paid for civic data and information; therefore these
> should be made available at no cost to citizens
>  Citizen projects using civic data will generate innovative solutions to
> social, economic and environmental problems
>  Citizen projects using civic data will allow citizens to creatively plan
> their communities
>  This is what a democracy looks like!
>
> Jason
>
>
> > Just my thoughts.
> >
> >
> > Alain Grignon
> > Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
> > Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
> > 601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
> > Ottawa, Ont.
> > Tel: [phone]
> > http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: May 3, 2006 10:57
> > PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Canada Census on line
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I would
> > pass it on.
> >
> > Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
> > When I tried to get started I got this
> >
> > "Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this site
> >
> > The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this site.
> >
> > To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To download
> > the required software. If you do not wish to download a new browser, you
> > can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by mail in the envelope
> > provided."
> >
> > So I called the help desk. I asked them why I get this messages and that I
> > met all the requirements with one small exception. I was on Linux. I was
> > told that Linux was not supported and I would have to use Windows or Mac to
> > access the site. I asked him why this was and the help desk guy told me
> > that as Linux was not all that popular so it was not supported and would
> > not likely be supported anytime soon. I took some time to try and educate
> > this gentleman about how the Internet should not have a specific operating
> > system requirement but I don't think he was really listening or cared.
> >
> > Is there any one I can contact on this in the government or is there a
> > anything the group can do to bring open standers argument to Census
> > Canada's website? As this is census update time I am sure that there are
> > other Linux users out there that are having issues. I am not pushing a
> > Linux agenda here but I am pushing for open standards for the government of
> > Canada's website.
> >
> > I know the group is just starting to get going but is this maybe a good
> > starting point for some action?
> >
> > If not any help in pointing me in the direction of someone I can contact to
> > complain would be much appreciated.
> >
> > +------------------------------------+
> > Best regards,
> > -Richard Houston
> > -R.L.H.  Consulting
> > -E-Mail  [hidden email]
> > -WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
> > -Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>
> --
> Software shouldn't be your struggle
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>

[Grignon, Alain]

Thanks Michael


Alain Grignon
Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
Ottawa, Ont.
Tel: [phone]
http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: May 4, 2006 3:08 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Wrong! Re: Canada Census on line

Hey Jason,

"You are way off base here." and "I'm sorry but this paragraph is woefully ignorant."

That's a bit harsh.  Please check the etiquette page to see the norms for the site.  This is not a rough and tumble linux-user group mailing list.  We have lots of people with lots of different backgrounds, there are going to be lots of misunderstandings and we've got to keep things really . . . civil  ;-)

http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/Etiquette

thanks.


On 5/4/06, Jason Loughead <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My turn.
>
> On Thursday 04 May 2006 8:46 am, Grignon, Alain wrote:
> > Richard,
> >
> > I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe
> > the Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope
> > of CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.
>
> You are way off base here. What makes you think the browser debate
> doesn't include open standards on the internet? Word processors and
> website code are both simply bits of instructions. When I as a citizen
> want to fully participate in government and gathering or submitting
> data who cares if I am denied by code on the net or code residing on
> my computer? The point is I'm being denied access, period. It's my
> RIGHT as a citizen of this country to expect equal access. Read more
> information on the history of the internet, TCP/IP, HTTP, the battle
> fought and won back then are at risk by laisse faire people who let corporations control our access to information.
>
> > That doesn't
> > necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses.
> > Anyone try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order
> > to allow government web services to evolve. Being a public servant
> > myself, I graple with these issues daily. There is a balance to be
> > truck between making things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.
> >
>
> I'm sorry but this paragraph is woefully ignorant. If a browser can an
> operating system that is compliant with http 4.1 transitional, and has
> a TCP/IP stack it's nobody's business if I made my own operating
> system from scratch. You're missing the entire point of standards,
> it's to ensure compatability not to be an impediment to technological
> evolution. The alternative is going back to using Archie (the
> University of Minnesota own this software and has threatened to
> extract royalty fees from every user), or Compuserve, or regressing
> back to unix days when many protocols were created by each university.
> In fact this is where TCP/IP came from it's an amalgamation of 32
> different protocols. Previous to this you had to be a hacker and know
> byte endianness, and script wrappers between terminal "standards".
> This debate is entirely appropraite to open document formats and
> access to information. For clarity (and in case you're using BeOS or
> Unix, those great unknowns apparently) here is the mission from CivicAccess's website.
>
> Citizens for Open Access to Civic Information and Data (CivicAccess)
> is a group of citizens which believes all levels of government should
> make civic information and data accessible at no cost in open formats to their citizens.
> We believe this is necessary to allow citizens to fully participate in
> the democractic process of an "information society."
> Objectives:
> To encourage all levels of governments (county, municipal, provincial,
> federal) to make civic data and information available to citizens
> without restrictions, at no cost, and in useable open formats.
> To encourage the development of citizen projects using civic data and
> information Making civic data and information freely available to
> citizens is important
> because:
>  Citizen participation in decision-making is fundamental to democracy  
> Good decisions are made by informed citizens  Quality civic data and
> information are fundamental to keeping citizens informed in an
> "information society"
>  Taxes have already paid for civic data and information; therefore
> these should be made available at no cost to citizens  Citizen
> projects using civic data will generate innovative solutions to
> social, economic and environmental problems  Citizen projects using
> civic data will allow citizens to creatively plan their communities  
> This is what a democracy looks like!
>
> Jason
>
>
> > Just my thoughts.
> >
> >
> > Alain Grignon
> > Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de
> > terrains Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du
> > Canada
> > 601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
> > Ottawa, Ont.
> > Tel: [phone]
> > http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: May 3,
> > 2006 10:57 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Canada Census on line
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I
> > would pass it on.
> >
> > Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
> > When I tried to get started I got this
> >
> > "Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this
> > site
> >
> > The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this site.
> >
> > To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To
> > download the required software. If you do not wish to download a new
> > browser, you can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by
> > mail in the envelope provided."
> >
> > So I called the help desk. I asked them why I get this messages and
> > that I met all the requirements with one small exception. I was on
> > Linux. I was told that Linux was not supported and I would have to
> > use Windows or Mac to access the site. I asked him why this was and
> > the help desk guy told me that as Linux was not all that popular so
> > it was not supported and would not likely be supported anytime soon.
> > I took some time to try and educate this gentleman about how the
> > Internet should not have a specific operating system requirement but I don't think he was really listening or cared.
> >
> > Is there any one I can contact on this in the government or is there
> > a anything the group can do to bring open standers argument to
> > Census Canada's website? As this is census update time I am sure
> > that there are other Linux users out there that are having issues. I
> > am not pushing a Linux agenda here but I am pushing for open
> > standards for the government of Canada's website.
> >
> > I know the group is just starting to get going but is this maybe a
> > good starting point for some action?
> >
> > If not any help in pointing me in the direction of someone I can
> > contact to complain would be much appreciated.
> >
> > +------------------------------------+
> > Best regards,
> > -Richard Houston
> > -R.L.H.  Consulting
> > -E-Mail  [hidden email]
> > -WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
> > -Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicacce
> > ss.ca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicacce
> > ss.ca
>
> --
> Software shouldn't be your struggle
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess
> .ca
>

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca

[Carmen Kazakoff Lane]

Hello:

Just a brief comment.

As this group is new and in the throngs of developing Mission Statements,
Goals and Objective, etc, I thought that it might be useful if it adopted a
Wiki that people could post to.  They are great collaborative working tools
enabling people to jointly create and edit documents. (p.s. I just noticed
on another post that the Ettiquette for the group is on a Wiki ... so it
would appear that other issues could be worked on there.)

A Blog could also be developed for the group. It would contain information
about the goals and objectives, as well as general discussion areas that
people could post comments to - and maintain the threaded discussion.
Eventually, it would be a marketing tool that you could point others towards
when you seek to create public awareness of issues related to access of
information.

Both blogs and wikis are available in Open Source - so the cost of creating
on is the cost of time.  The benefits are in marketing, collaborative
undertakings, organizing issues around which debates occur, and archiving
debates.

I also agree with a previous posting  - it is very important that the group
presents itself as reasonable and not hotheads.  Other organizations - like
Moveon.org - do a great job of creating public awareness of social issues in
a manner that is presented as very professional and very effective. See
their site at:

http://www.moveon.org/


Carmen Kazakoff-Lane

[Tracey P. Lauriault-2]

Here is the link to the wiki
http://civicaccess.ca/


Tracey P. Lauriault
Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre (GCRC)
Dept. of Geography, 1125 Colonel By Dr., Ottawa (ON) K1S 5B6
[hidden email] or [hidden email]

On May 04, Carmen Kazakoff Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hello:
>
> Just a brief comment.
>
> As this group is new and in the throngs of developing Mission Statements,
> Goals and Objective, etc, I thought that it might be useful if it adopted a
> Wiki that people could post to.  They are great collaborative working tools
> enabling people to jointly create and edit documents. (p.s. I just noticed
> on another post that the Ettiquette for the group is on a Wiki ... so it
> would appear that other issues could be worked on there.)
>
> A Blog could also be developed for the group. It would contain information
> about the goals and objectives, as well as general discussion areas that
> people could post comments to - and maintain the threaded discussion.
> Eventually, it would be a marketing tool that you could point others towards
> when you seek to create public awareness of issues related to access of
> information.
>
> Both blogs and wikis are available in Open Source - so the cost of creating
> on is the cost of time.  The benefits are in marketing, collaborative
> undertakings, organizing issues around which debates occur, and archiving
> debates.
>
> I also agree with a previous posting  - it is very important that the group
> presents itself as reasonable and not hotheads.  Other organizations - like
> Moveon.org - do a great job of creating public awareness of social issues in
> a manner that is presented as very professional and very effective. See
> their site at:
>
> <a href='http://www.moveon.org/'>http://www.moveon.org/</a>
>
>
> Carmen Kazakoff-Lane
>
>
>
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