Canada Census on line

[Jason Loughead]

> > > I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am.

He invited comments. :) I also used the term ignorant in the kindest
philosophical way. I like the approach of attracting people from many
perspectives while also not forsaking freedom. Bill Gates "got" the internet
in 95 and if freedom means anything it must include all transmission modes.
Most people are not just using sneaknet floppies for their GIS data. If we
are to be principled we need to advocate free speech not just free beer.
Corporations who simply want a cheap OS or librarians simply wanting easier
interchange is a very limited view of freedom. If I seem like a zealot it's
because so much of the world is so busy accommodating and compromising that
they essentially stand for nothing.

I can be extremely civil ;) Gandhi had some nice comments on western
civilization.

Jason


On Thursday 04 May 2006 2:07 pm, Michael Lenczner wrote:

> Hey Jason,
>
> "You are way off base here." and "I'm sorry but this paragraph is
> woefully ignorant."
>
> That's a bit harsh.  Please check the etiquette page to see the norms
> for the site.  This is not a rough and tumble linux-user group mailing
> list.  We have lots of people with lots of different backgrounds,
> there are going to be lots of misunderstandings and we've got to keep
> things really . . . civil  ;-)
>
> http://www.civicaccess.ca/wiki/Launch/Etiquette
>
> thanks.
>
> On 5/4/06, Jason Loughead <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > My turn.
> >
> > On Thursday 04 May 2006 8:46 am, Grignon, Alain wrote:
> > > Richard,
> > >
> > > I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe
> > > the Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope of
> > > CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.
> >
> > You are way off base here. What makes you think the browser debate
> > doesn't include open standards on the internet? Word processors and
> > website code are both simply bits of instructions. When I as a citizen
> > want to fully participate in government and gathering or submitting data
> > who cares if I am denied by code on the net or code residing on my
> > computer? The point is I'm being denied access, period. It's my RIGHT as
> > a citizen of this country to expect equal access. Read more information
> > on the history of the internet, TCP/IP, HTTP, the battle fought and won
> > back then are at risk by laisse faire people who let corporations control
> > our access to information.
> >
> > > That doesn't
> > > necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses.
> > > Anyone try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order to
> > > allow government web services to evolve. Being a public servant myself,
> > > I graple with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck
> > > between making things accessible and keeping inline with current
> > > technologies.
> >
> > I'm sorry but this paragraph is woefully ignorant. If a browser can an
> > operating system that is compliant with http 4.1 transitional, and has a
> > TCP/IP stack it's nobody's business if I made my own operating system
> > from scratch. You're missing the entire point of standards, it's to
> > ensure compatability not to be an impediment to technological evolution.
> > The alternative is going back to using Archie (the University of
> > Minnesota own this software and has threatened to extract royalty fees
> > from every user), or Compuserve, or regressing back to unix days when
> > many protocols were created by each university. In fact this is where
> > TCP/IP came from it's an amalgamation of 32 different protocols. Previous
> > to this you had to be a hacker and know byte endianness, and script
> > wrappers between
> > terminal "standards". This debate is entirely appropraite to open
> > document formats and access to information. For clarity (and in case
> > you're using BeOS or Unix, those great unknowns apparently) here is the
> > mission from CivicAccess's website.
> >
> > Citizens for Open Access to Civic Information and Data (CivicAccess) is a
> > group of citizens which believes all levels of government should make
> > civic information and data accessible at no cost in open formats to their
> > citizens. We believe this is necessary to allow citizens to fully
> > participate in the democractic process of an "information society."
> > Objectives:
> > To encourage all levels of governments (county, municipal, provincial,
> > federal) to make civic data and information available to citizens without
> > restrictions, at no cost, and in useable open formats.
> > To encourage the development of citizen projects using civic data and
> > information
> > Making civic data and information freely available to citizens is
> > important because:
> >  Citizen participation in decision-making is fundamental to democracy
> >  Good decisions are made by informed citizens
> >  Quality civic data and information are fundamental to keeping citizens
> > informed in an "information society"
> >  Taxes have already paid for civic data and information; therefore these
> > should be made available at no cost to citizens
> >  Citizen projects using civic data will generate innovative solutions to
> > social, economic and environmental problems
> >  Citizen projects using civic data will allow citizens to creatively plan
> > their communities
> >  This is what a democracy looks like!
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > > Just my thoughts.
> > >
> > >
> > > Alain Grignon
> > > Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
> > > Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
> > > 601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
> > > Ottawa, Ont.
> > > Tel: [phone]
> > > http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: May 3, 2006
> > > 10:57 PM
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Canada Census on line
> > >
> > > Hey all,
> > >
> > > Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I would
> > > pass it on.
> > >
> > > Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
> > > When I tried to get started I got this
> > >
> > > "Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this
> > > site
> > >
> > > The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this
> > > site.
> > >
> > > To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To
> > > download the required software. If you do not wish to download a new
> > > browser, you can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by
> > > mail in the envelope provided."
> > >
> > > So I called the help desk. I asked them why I get this messages and
> > > that I met all the requirements with one small exception. I was on
> > > Linux. I was told that Linux was not supported and I would have to use
> > > Windows or Mac to access the site. I asked him why this was and the
> > > help desk guy told me that as Linux was not all that popular so it was
> > > not supported and would not likely be supported anytime soon. I took
> > > some time to try and educate this gentleman about how the Internet
> > > should not have a specific operating system requirement but I don't
> > > think he was really listening or cared.
> > >
> > > Is there any one I can contact on this in the government or is there a
> > > anything the group can do to bring open standers argument to Census
> > > Canada's website? As this is census update time I am sure that there
> > > are other Linux users out there that are having issues. I am not
> > > pushing a Linux agenda here but I am pushing for open standards for the
> > > government of Canada's website.
> > >
> > > I know the group is just starting to get going but is this maybe a good
> > > starting point for some action?
> > >
> > > If not any help in pointing me in the direction of someone I can
> > > contact to complain would be much appreciated.
> > >
> > > +------------------------------------+
> > > Best regards,
> > > -Richard Houston
> > > -R.L.H.  Consulting
> > > -E-Mail  [hidden email]
> > > -WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
> > > -Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.
> > >ca
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.
> > >ca
> >
> > --
> > Software shouldn't be your struggle
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca

--
Software shouldn't be your struggle

[Russell McOrmond-2]

Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
> Russell can you help Richard out? Could you share on your knowledge on
> the list regarding this question?
>
> Russell is with - Getting Open Source Logic INto Governments (GOSLING)
> see his bio on the wiki - http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/RussellMcOrmond
>
> Do other people on the list work on this?


   This topic has been spread across many different forums.  I don't
think this is primarily a CivicAccess issue, so those interested in the
topic should be going elsewhere.  There are a variety of people involved
with GOSLING that have more details:

http://GOSLINGcommunity.org


   Here is where the CivicAccess part comes in:  A number of people have
been trying to do ATIP requests to get documentation on this process,
including a number of security students who obviously recognize that
security by obscurity is not security at all.   Their requests have been
denied, with the government claiming that the release of any
documentation on this process claiming proprietary third-party vendor
knowledge.

http://phbo.blogspot.com/


   This process involves the downloading of unverified/unauted and
non-ATIP'able software to the citizens home computer, circumventing all
security settings of that citizen.  Whatever theory was used to claim
that this system is "secure" is invalid from the perspective of the
security of the citizens computer given the only way to run this
application is to be insecure.

In this case the application is written in Java, but that is not
relevant:  It is not a "vulnerability" in a computing language that is
at issue, but the fact that an application that has no third party
auditing is being installed/executed on the persons computer.  Java is a
full featured language and can manipulate the same system files that a
program written in C or any other complete language could.

The "theory" behind this application may be sound, but the
implimentation is not.  The theory was to use encryption in a variety of
ways to ensure that the data was kept private and anonymous.  The
problem is that this type of theory can only be implimented "in the real
world" through open vendor-neutral standards and multiple
citizen-verifiable (IE: full source code available for open audit)
implimentations.  No matter what "theory" is being claimed to be
implimented, there is no way to verify that the code being installed on
the citizens computer remotely related to this "theory".

To understand the problem in more depth, read about the "code is law"
concept:

Speaking Notes from the SpeedGeek at Toronto Penguin Day on November 20,
2004.
http://www.flora.ca/documents/code-is-law-speedgeek.html



--
  Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/>
  2415+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 which protects antiquated Recording,
  Movie and "software manufacturing" industries from modernization.
  Send a letter to your Canadian MP! --> http://digital-copyright.ca/

[Russell McOrmond-2]

Note: Sorry I'm not up-to-date on mailing list messages.  Many changes
to my business and so many things happening at once.

Grignon, Alain wrote:
> We are trying to start to look more closely at Open Source technologies at NRCan but have no official guidelines in place yet. I also heard there's a group out of PWGSC that are trying to coordinate an interdepartmental approach to intgration of open source in government. Will try to get more info for you.

   You need to be part of GOSLING -- http://GOSLINGcommunity.org

   We meet weekly in Ottawa, and that includes Joseph Potvin --
previously of PWGSC, now at Treasury board, who is the primary person
behind what is now called IRCan.

What is IRCan?

http://www.ocri.ca/email_broadcasts/partnership/partnership_potvin.html

"For three years Mr. Potvin has also coordinated planning towards the
creation of Intellectual Resources Canada (Ressources Intellectuelles
Canada), an emerging inter-departmental/inter-sectoral initiative to
rationalize public spending on custom intellectual assets, including
software. IRCan is being created to support collective evolution of
assets across combinations of public sector, commercial, academic and
civil society participants, while engaging the full spectrum of business
methods and technology solutions provided for in federal legislation,
agreements, policies and guidelines."


See also:
http://www.capchi.org/cgi-bin/dada/mail.cgi/archive/announce/20060418201129/

--
  Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/>
  2415+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 which protects antiquated Recording,
  Movie and "software manufacturing" industries from modernization.
  Send a letter to your Canadian MP! --> http://digital-copyright.ca/

[Russell McOrmond-2]

Daniel Haran wrote:
> That this is even an issue for Statscan just adds to my perception
> that decisions there are made by technically illiterate managers.

   There is a large variety of highly technical people who believe that
software is something that should be "bought" like toasters, cars,
buildings, or other tangible assets should be bought.  I do not believe
the problem comes out of a lack of "technical" knowledge, but a lack of
understanding of the public policy implications inherent in the
automation of public policy through software rules.

   It is a "social sciences" policy problem, not a technical problem.
In fact, I believe most of the problems we see come from people
trusting/hiring "technically literate" people to solve problems which
have nothing to do with technology.

   There are few that think of software as "rules which implement
policy", and categorize the acquisition of it the way way they would
consulting services from a lawyer.  It has never seen it argued that a
legal opinion from a non-government lawyer is "proprietary knowledge"
that can not be disclosed to a citizen, and yet this is the nonsense at
play with software policy.

--
  Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/>
  2415+ Canadians oppose Bill C-60 which protects antiquated Recording,
  Movie and "software manufacturing" industries from modernization.
  Send a letter to your Canadian MP! --> http://digital-copyright.ca/