Public domain and wikisource

[Karl Dubost]

Hi,

IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)

Some authors I love are in the public domain in Canada (50 years after the death). Two examples are Camus and Bachelard. They are authors from France.

Camus works are easily accessible at a Quebec university site
http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/camus_albert/camus_albert.html

Someone like Bachelard is impossible to find. So I was musing on helping to get it on wikisource. BUT wikisource has chosen to put a restriction on the author nationality for applying the public domain.

> In Aide:Droit d’auteur - Wikisource
> At https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Aide:Droit_d%E2%80%99auteur
>
> Domaine public : sont admissibles tous les textes
> qui ne sont plus sous droit d’auteur en droit
> français ou qui ne sont plus sous droit dans leur
> pays d’origine pour les auteurs francophones non
> français.

I was wondering about two things then:

1. Is the public domain in a specific country constrained by the nationality of the author?
2. Should we have a wikisource-like in Canada, hosted in Canada, where authors dead more than 50 years ago could be easily accessible?




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[Glen Newton]

My understanding is that copyright law has nothing to do with the
nationality of the author (in the vast majority of jurisdictions).
Copyright length for a work to enter into the public domain in a
particular country only involves the author's time of death. Their
nationality makes no difference.

The law is applied to their work(s).

So a work that has entered the public domain in one country can be
still a copyrighted work in another. The law is applied by the country
where _you_ are (viewing/reading/etc the work), not country of the
source of the work.

NB: I am not a lawyer and this should not be construed as legal
advice. This is my personal opinion and observation.

-Glen Newton



On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Karl Dubost <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)
>
> Some authors I love are in the public domain in Canada (50 years after the death). Two examples are Camus and Bachelard. They are authors from France.
>
> Camus works are easily accessible at a Quebec university site
> http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/camus_albert/camus_albert.html
>
> Someone like Bachelard is impossible to find. So I was musing on helping to get it on wikisource. BUT wikisource has chosen to put a restriction on the author nationality for applying the public domain.
>
>> In Aide:Droit d’auteur - Wikisource
>> At https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Aide:Droit_d%E2%80%99auteur
>>
>> Domaine public : sont admissibles tous les textes
>> qui ne sont plus sous droit d’auteur en droit
>> français ou qui ne sont plus sous droit dans leur
>> pays d’origine pour les auteurs francophones non
>> français.
>
> I was wondering about two things then:
>
> 1. Is the public domain in a specific country constrained by the nationality of the author?
> 2. Should we have a wikisource-like in Canada, hosted in Canada, where authors dead more than 50 years ago could be easily accessible?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Karl Dubost
> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

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[Jonathan Gray]

For several years we've been working on a series of 'public domain calculators' that map copyright law and then use this to provide guidance on which works are in PD in a given country. [1]

Our 'Public Domain Works' project was intended to combine metadata about cultural works (books, films, photographs, paintings, etc), with calculators, including links to digital copies of works which are freely and openly available (i.e. not encumbered by rights or contracts from digitising institutions, publishers, editors, etc).

Our French chapter is currently leading on this, and we have a mailing list - just in case anyone's interested: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/pd-discuss

J.

[1] We made a short video on this here: http://publicdomain.okfn.org/calculators/ - there's a Canadian flowchart here: http://publicdomain.okfn.org/calculators/flowcharts/

On 12 September 2013 15:27, Glen Newton <[hidden email]> wrote:

My understanding is that copyright law has nothing to do with the
nationality of the author (in the vast majority of jurisdictions).
Copyright length for a work to enter into the public domain in a
particular country only involves the author's time of death. Their
nationality makes no difference.

The law is applied to their work(s).

So a work that has entered the public domain in one country can be
still a copyrighted work in another. The law is applied by the country
where _you_ are (viewing/reading/etc the work), not country of the
source of the work.

NB: I am not a lawyer and this should not be construed as legal
advice. This is my personal opinion and observation.

-Glen Newton

On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Karl Dubost <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)
>
> Some authors I love are in the public domain in Canada (50 years after the death). Two examples are Camus and Bachelard. They are authors from France.
>
> Camus works are easily accessible at a Quebec university site
> http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/camus_albert/camus_albert.html
>
> Someone like Bachelard is impossible to find. So I was musing on helping to get it on wikisource. BUT wikisource has chosen to put a restriction on the author nationality for applying the public domain.
>
>> In Aide:Droit d’auteur - Wikisource
>> At https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Aide:Droit_d%E2%80%99auteur
>>
>> Domaine public : sont admissibles tous les textes
>> qui ne sont plus sous droit d’auteur en droit
>> français ou qui ne sont plus sous droit dans leur
>> pays d’origine pour les auteurs francophones non
>> français.
>
> I was wondering about two things then:
>
> 1. Is the public domain in a specific country constrained by the nationality of the author?
> 2. Should we have a wikisource-like in Canada, hosted in Canada, where authors dead more than 50 years ago could be easily accessible?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Karl Dubost
> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>
>

> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss



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The Open Knowledge Foundation

Empowering through Open Knowledge

okfn.org  |  @okfn  |  OKF on Facebook  |  Blog  |  Newsletter

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[john whelan]

That would be my opinion also, there are a number of ebooks floating around that are out of copyright in one country but not in another.

Cheerio John

On 12 September 2013 10:27, Glen Newton <[hidden email]> wrote:

My understanding is that copyright law has nothing to do with the
nationality of the author (in the vast majority of jurisdictions).
Copyright length for a work to enter into the public domain in a
particular country only involves the author's time of death. Their
nationality makes no difference.

The law is applied to their work(s).

So a work that has entered the public domain in one country can be
still a copyrighted work in another. The law is applied by the country
where _you_ are (viewing/reading/etc the work), not country of the
source of the work.

NB: I am not a lawyer and this should not be construed as legal
advice. This is my personal opinion and observation.

-Glen Newton



On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Karl Dubost <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)
>
> Some authors I love are in the public domain in Canada (50 years after the death). Two examples are Camus and Bachelard. They are authors from France.
>
> Camus works are easily accessible at a Quebec university site
> http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/camus_albert/camus_albert.html
>
> Someone like Bachelard is impossible to find. So I was musing on helping to get it on wikisource. BUT wikisource has chosen to put a restriction on the author nationality for applying the public domain.
>
>> In Aide:Droit d’auteur - Wikisource
>> At https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Aide:Droit_d%E2%80%99auteur
>>
>> Domaine public : sont admissibles tous les textes
>> qui ne sont plus sous droit d’auteur en droit
>> français ou qui ne sont plus sous droit dans leur
>> pays d’origine pour les auteurs francophones non
>> français.
>
> I was wondering about two things then:
>
> 1. Is the public domain in a specific country constrained by the nationality of the author?
> 2. Should we have a wikisource-like in Canada, hosted in Canada, where authors dead more than 50 years ago could be easily accessible?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Karl Dubost
> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss



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[Russell McOrmond]

On 13-09-12 10:27 AM, Glen Newton wrote:
> Their nationality makes no difference.
...
> The law is applied to their work(s).
...
> NB: I am not a lawyer and this should not be construed as legal
> advice. This is my personal opinion and observation.

  I just want to say I'm also not a lawyer, but am in full agreement
with what you are saying.  This may make life complex (IE: just because
something is in the public domain somewhere else doesn't mean it is in
Canada, and vice-versa), but it is the way the law works.

  Canada is in the majority with having a death+50 Berne-based system,
so while we don't need to have our own public domain repositories we do
need to use one that is different than the death+70 (or excessively
complex USA one as they only joined Berne in the 1970's and then later
extended to death+70) systems.

  I wonder if there is a wikisource-like system already in a death+50
country?



(Looking forward to the modernization towards a fixed term from date of
creation/publication and get rid of the morbid death+ aspect of
copyright law.  We as a society should not be receiving such great
benefit from the death of authors!).

--
 Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/>
 Please help us tell the Canadian Parliament to protect our property
 rights as owners of Information Technology. Sign the petition!
 http://l.c11.ca/ict

 "The government, lobbied by legacy copyright holders and hardware
  manufacturers, can pry my camcorder, computer, home theatre, or
  portable media player from my cold dead hands!"
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[Robert Tiessen]

Michael Geist had two or three blog posts about a Canadian site that posted music scores that were in the public domain.  Despite the fact that what the site did was completely legal in Canada (life of the author plus 50 years), the site was eventually shut down.  The site couldn't afford to deal with harassing copyright infringement lawsuits from European music publishers.  

While I would like to see Canada develop its own website of books in the public domain, there are risks to a prominent site.  

Here is link to one of the blog posts:

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5754/125/

Robert Tiessen
Librarian on a Research Leave

University of Calgary Library
[hidden email]
403.220.6043

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Karl Dubost
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 6:40 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Public domain and wikisource

Hi,

IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)

Some authors I love are in the public domain in Canada (50 years after the death). Two examples are Camus and Bachelard. They are authors from France.

Camus works are easily accessible at a Quebec university site http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/camus_albert/camus_albert.html

Someone like Bachelard is impossible to find. So I was musing on helping to get it on wikisource. BUT wikisource has chosen to put a restriction on the author nationality for applying the public domain.

> In Aide:Droit d'auteur - Wikisource
> At https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Aide:Droit_d%E2%80%99auteur
>
> Domaine public : sont admissibles tous les textes qui ne sont plus
> sous droit d'auteur en droit français ou qui ne sont plus sous droit
> dans leur pays d'origine pour les auteurs francophones non français.

I was wondering about two things then:

1. Is the public domain in a specific country constrained by the nationality of the author?
2. Should we have a wikisource-like in Canada, hosted in Canada, where authors dead more than 50 years ago could be easily accessible?




--
Karl Dubost
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/


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[Peder Jakobsen]

Are works of fiction Open Data?  I never read a book that was data, except the Yellow Pages.   Yes, many books reference data, but books are not data, meaning they cannot be turned into something new or more useful by machines, nor should they.   (Unless you are making a corpus for translation I suppose).

Or am I smoking funny bananas here…?

Peder

On 2013-09-12, at 4:52 PM, Robert Tiessen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Michael Geist had two or three blog posts about a Canadian site that posted music scores that were in the public domain.  Despite the fact that what the site did was completely legal in Canada (life of the author plus 50 years), the site was eventually shut down.  The site couldn't afford to deal with harassing copyright infringement lawsuits from European music publishers.  
>
> While I would like to see Canada develop its own website of books in the public domain, there are risks to a prominent site.  
>
> Here is link to one of the blog posts:
>
> http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5754/125/
>
> Robert Tiessen
> Librarian on a Research Leave
>
> University of Calgary Library
> [hidden email]
> 403.220.6043
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Karl Dubost
> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 6:40 AM
> To: civicaccess discuss
> Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Public domain and wikisource
>
> Hi,
>
> IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer)
>
> Some authors I love are in the public domain in Canada (50 years after the death). Two examples are Camus and Bachelard. They are authors from France.
>
> Camus works are easily accessible at a Quebec university site http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/camus_albert/camus_albert.html
>
> Someone like Bachelard is impossible to find. So I was musing on helping to get it on wikisource. BUT wikisource has chosen to put a restriction on the author nationality for applying the public domain.
>
>> In Aide:Droit d'auteur - Wikisource
>> At https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Aide:Droit_d%E2%80%99auteur
>>
>> Domaine public : sont admissibles tous les textes qui ne sont plus
>> sous droit d'auteur en droit français ou qui ne sont plus sous droit
>> dans leur pays d'origine pour les auteurs francophones non français.
>
> I was wondering about two things then:
>
> 1. Is the public domain in a specific country constrained by the nationality of the author?
> 2. Should we have a wikisource-like in Canada, hosted in Canada, where authors dead more than 50 years ago could be easily accessible?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Karl Dubost
> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

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[Karl Dubost]

Robert Tiessen [2013-09-12T16:52]:
> The site couldn't afford to deal with harassing copyright infringement lawsuits from European music publishers.  

UQAC had issues with Gallimard related to Camus. The agreement which has been found was to block based on IP location. (which can be easily bypass with a proxy, but that's another story).



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[Karl Dubost]

Peder Jakobsen [2013-09-12T18:54]:
> Are works of fiction Open Data?

Well. Yes they contain data that can be interpreted. There are a lot of things into them.
But if your comment is "Is it out of topic for this list?" Slightly. I'm abusing the fact that this community might have knowledge about it ;)


> but books are not data, meaning they cannot be turned into something new or more useful by machines, nor should they.

There's never a necessity, but always a possibility.

Movie: Jules et Jim
http://www.flickr.com/photos/densitydesign/3220157963/in/set-72157612908164228/

Shakespeare
http://www.understanding-shakespeare.com/


> Or am I smoking funny bananas here…?

You are ;) but that's ok. Sometimes it might be good :)


--
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[Peder Jakobsen]

On 2013-09-12, at 7:05 PM, Karl Dubost <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Peder Jakobsen [2013-09-12T18:54]:
>> Are works of fiction Open Data?
>
> Well. Yes they contain data that can be interpreted. There are a lot of things into them.
> But if your comment is "Is it out of topic for this list?" Slightly. I'm abusing the fact that this community might have knowledge about it ;)
>
>
>> but books are not data, meaning they cannot be turned into something new or more useful by machines, nor should they.
>
> There's never a necessity, but always a possibility.
>
> Movie: Jules et Jim
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/densitydesign/3220157963/in/set-72157612908164228/
>
> Shakespeare
> http://www.understanding-shakespeare.com/

Interesting, thanks for sharing.
>
>
>> Or am I smoking funny bananas here…?
>
> You are ;) but that's ok. Sometimes it might be good :)

Does that mean free porn is Open Data?   Or free parking….?  Ok, I'll go easy on the bananas now  :p

>
>
> --
> Karl Dubost
> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Glen Newton]

Books are text. Text is data.

I do research in natural language processing and treat all text
(including books) as data.
Here is an example of a research competition involving 50,000
digitized (out-of-copyright) books, ~70GB of text:
http://www.inex.otago.ac.nz/tracks/books/books.asp

My previous employment at the NRC involved working with the text of
~5.7 million _in_copyright_ scientific research articles, ~700GB of
text.

-Glen

On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Peder Jakobsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 2013-09-12, at 7:05 PM, Karl Dubost <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Peder Jakobsen [2013-09-12T18:54]:
>>> Are works of fiction Open Data?
>>
>> Well. Yes they contain data that can be interpreted. There are a lot of things into them.
>> But if your comment is "Is it out of topic for this list?" Slightly. I'm abusing the fact that this community might have knowledge about it ;)
>>
>>
>>> but books are not data, meaning they cannot be turned into something new or more useful by machines, nor should they.
>>
>> There's never a necessity, but always a possibility.
>>
>> Movie: Jules et Jim
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/densitydesign/3220157963/in/set-72157612908164228/
>>
>> Shakespeare
>> http://www.understanding-shakespeare.com/
>
> Interesting, thanks for sharing.
>>
>>
>>> Or am I smoking funny bananas here…?
>>
>> You are ;) but that's ok. Sometimes it might be good :)
>
> Does that mean free porn is Open Data?   Or free parking….?  Ok, I'll go easy on the bananas now  :p
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Karl Dubost
>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Peder Jakobsen]

On 2013-09-12, at 19:42, Glen Newton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Books are text. Text is data.
>
> I do research in natural language processing and treat all text
> (including books) as data.
> Here is an example of a research competition involving 50,000
> digitized (out-of-copyright) books, ~70GB of text:
> http://www.inex.otago.ac.nz/tracks/books/books.asp
>
> My previous employment at the NRC involved working with the text of
> ~5.7 million _in_copyright_ scientific research articles, ~700GB of
> text

Yes, these types of sources are clearly data, but works of fiction perhaps not so much in the sense that the content is not exactly low hanging fruit for using computation to learn more about how the world works.

But the NRC is not in the low hanging fruit business. ;)

>
> -Glen
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Peder Jakobsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2013-09-12, at 7:05 PM, Karl Dubost <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Peder Jakobsen [2013-09-12T18:54]:
>>>> Are works of fiction Open Data?
>>>
>>> Well. Yes they contain data that can be interpreted. There are a lot of things into them.
>>> But if your comment is "Is it out of topic for this list?" Slightly. I'm abusing the fact that this community might have knowledge about it ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>> but books are not data, meaning they cannot be turned into something new or more useful by machines, nor should they.
>>>
>>> There's never a necessity, but always a possibility.
>>>
>>> Movie: Jules et Jim
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/densitydesign/3220157963/in/set-72157612908164228/
>>>
>>> Shakespeare
>>> http://www.understanding-shakespeare.com/
>>
>> Interesting, thanks for sharing.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Or am I smoking funny bananas here…?
>>>
>>> You are ;) but that's ok. Sometimes it might be good :)
>>
>> Does that mean free porn is Open Data?   Or free parking….?  Ok, I'll go easy on the bananas now  :p
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Karl Dubost
>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>
>
>
> --
> -
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[Glen Newton]

Depends how you define "how the world works":
- if it is the scientific world, then you are correct
- if it is the human world, then fiction can indeed be helpful  :-)

-Glen

On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 11:41 PM, Peder Jakobsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> On 2013-09-12, at 19:42, Glen Newton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Books are text. Text is data.
>>
>> I do research in natural language processing and treat all text
>> (including books) as data.
>> Here is an example of a research competition involving 50,000
>> digitized (out-of-copyright) books, ~70GB of text:
>> http://www.inex.otago.ac.nz/tracks/books/books.asp
>>
>> My previous employment at the NRC involved working with the text of
>> ~5.7 million _in_copyright_ scientific research articles, ~700GB of
>> text
>
> Yes, these types of sources are clearly data, but works of fiction perhaps not so much in the sense that the content is not exactly low hanging fruit for using computation to learn more about how the world works.
>
> But the NRC is not in the low hanging fruit business. ;)
>
>>
>> -Glen
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Peder Jakobsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2013-09-12, at 7:05 PM, Karl Dubost <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peder Jakobsen [2013-09-12T18:54]:
>>>>> Are works of fiction Open Data?
>>>>
>>>> Well. Yes they contain data that can be interpreted. There are a lot of things into them.
>>>> But if your comment is "Is it out of topic for this list?" Slightly. I'm abusing the fact that this community might have knowledge about it ;)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> but books are not data, meaning they cannot be turned into something new or more useful by machines, nor should they.
>>>>
>>>> There's never a necessity, but always a possibility.
>>>>
>>>> Movie: Jules et Jim
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/densitydesign/3220157963/in/set-72157612908164228/
>>>>
>>>> Shakespeare
>>>> http://www.understanding-shakespeare.com/
>>>
>>> Interesting, thanks for sharing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Or am I smoking funny bananas here…?
>>>>
>>>> You are ;) but that's ok. Sometimes it might be good :)
>>>
>>> Does that mean free porn is Open Data?   Or free parking….?  Ok, I'll go easy on the bananas now  :p
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Karl Dubost
>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>>
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>>
>>
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[Peder Jakobsen]

On 2013-09-13, at 9:49 AM, Glen Newton <[hidden email]> wrote:

- if it is the human world, then fiction can indeed be helpful  :-)

Helpful to individuals perhaps, but probably damaging to societies when fiction is confused with facts. 

The same can be said for stats in general.   When stats are confused with facts, it usually doesn't turn out well.  (2008 Financial Crisis, etc. )

Peder 

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[Glen Newton]

>damaging to societies when fiction is confused with facts.

That is orthogonal to whether it is data or not.
 We are moving on to the interpretation of data. No one ever said data
represented facts.

-Glen



On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Peder Jakobsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2013-09-13, at 9:49 AM, Glen Newton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> - if it is the human world, then fiction can indeed be helpful  :-)
>
>
> Helpful to individuals perhaps, but probably damaging to societies when
> fiction is confused with facts.
>
> The same can be said for stats in general.   When stats are confused with
> facts, it usually doesn't turn out well.  (2008 Financial Crisis, etc. )
>
> Peder
>
>
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