NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
 
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Just imagine if our census data, well, first we had to imagine we had
a census, and second if we had one and if past ones were actually available to us at no cost, just imagine what we could also do in Canada in terms of visualizing patterns across the nation! fyi - the Canadian census does not ask questions about cultural groups anymore so we will not be able to create such a map for 2011 even if the data were free. This NYTimes visualization is just beautiful. Mapping America: Every City, Every Block http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer -- Tracey P. Lauriault 613-234-2805 |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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The maps are indeed pretty. However, I am wondering about the implications of identifying neighbourhoods based on ethnic/racial population (white/black/hispanic neighbourhoods). thoughts? Heather Morrison On 15-Dec-10, at 1:18 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
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Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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This is normal. We have made maps like this for centuries as these
inform you about the nature of neighbourhoods. If you notice each dot represents 500 people so not an individual household. This type of information is critically important as it tells you something about segregated cities, it tells you something about economics and if you combine that information with education, schools, proximity to transit it tells you about who does and does not have access to resources. People use this type of information for organizing and for lobbying for resources. On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Heather Morrison <[hidden email]> wrote: > The maps are indeed pretty. However, I am wondering about the implications > of identifying neighbourhoods based on ethnic/racial population > (white/black/hispanic neighbourhoods). > thoughts? > Heather Morrison > On 15-Dec-10, at 1:18 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > > Just imagine if our census data, well, first we had to imagine we had > a census, and second if we had one and if past ones were actually > available to us at no cost, just imagine what we could also do in > Canada in terms of visualizing patterns across the nation! > fyi - the Canadian census does not ask questions about cultural groups > anymore so we will not be able to create such a map for 2011 even if > the data were free. > This NYTimes visualization is just beautiful. > Mapping America: Every City, Every Block > http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > 613-234-2805 > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > -- Tracey P. Lauriault 613-234-2805 |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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On 15-Dec-10, at 6:42 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > This is normal. We have made maps like this for centuries We have made war, and practiced racism, for centuries and more. Are these normal too? > as these > inform you about the nature of neighbourhoods. If you notice each dot > represents 500 people so not an individual household. This type of > information is critically important as it tells you something about > segregated cities, it tells you something about economics and if you > combine that information with education, schools, proximity to transit > it tells you about who does and does not have access to resources. > People use this type of information for organizing and for lobbying > for resources. No doubt this information is useful - but to whom, and for what purposes? We can all see progressive reasons for using this information (I do) - but are all of us progressive? I don't find it hard at all to imagine this information used to facilitate discrimination. I am sure that this information is useful for lobbying for resources - but who has money to hire lobbyists? best, Heather > > > On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Heather Morrison <[hidden email]> > wrote: >> The maps are indeed pretty. However, I am wondering about the >> implications >> of identifying neighbourhoods based on ethnic/racial population >> (white/black/hispanic neighbourhoods). >> thoughts? >> Heather Morrison >> On 15-Dec-10, at 1:18 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: >> >> Just imagine if our census data, well, first we had to imagine we had >> a census, and second if we had one and if past ones were actually >> available to us at no cost, just imagine what we could also do in >> Canada in terms of visualizing patterns across the nation! >> fyi - the Canadian census does not ask questions about cultural >> groups >> anymore so we will not be able to create such a map for 2011 even if >> the data were free. >> This NYTimes visualization is just beautiful. >> Mapping America: Every City, Every Block >> http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer >> -- >> Tracey P. Lauriault >> 613-234-2805 >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> > > > > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > 613-234-2805 > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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Heather;
The information is incredibly empowering to marginalized & segregated groups. Ideally, we would all be treated equal, this information combined with other variables tells us and shows us we are not. In this map I see density, diversity, difference, sparseness, urban, rural, hubs and spokes, corridors and clusters, where different people live and don't, I see raibows and i see distinct lines. This is the US Mosaic. Unfortunately, we cannot wipe this map clean of its underlying truths and a blank map or an empty sheet does brings no justice in this case. On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Heather Morrison <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- Tracey P. Lauriault 613-234-2805 <input onclick="if(typeof(jsCall)=='function'){jsCall();}else{setTimeout('jsCall()',500);}" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"> |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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In reply to this post by Heather Morrison-2
> We have made war, and practiced racism, for centuries and more. Are these
> normal too? Reductio ad absurdum > No doubt this information is useful - but to whom, and for what purposes? We > can all see progressive reasons for using this information (I do) - but are > all of us progressive? I don't find it hard at all to imagine this > information used to facilitate discrimination. I am sure that this > information is useful for lobbying for resources - but who has money to hire > lobbyists? You cannot hold back knowledge or information because some people will not see it the way you do. -Glen |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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In reply to this post by Tracey P. Lauriault
really I am literate folks but sometimes I wonder! Shesh!
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote: Heather; -- Tracey P. Lauriault 613-234-2805 <input onclick="if(typeof(jsCall)=='function'){jsCall();}else{setTimeout('jsCall()',500);}" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"> |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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In reply to this post by Tracey P. Lauriault
Speaking about visibility of portions of the population, there is the visibility of the machinery of government. Information Commissioner of Canada Suzanne Legault recently submitted a special report to Parliament which stated that the statutory right to access federal documents is at "risk of being totally obliterated." That's important.
Mark |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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http://people.apache.org/~hossman/#threadhijack
Thread Hijacking on Mailing Lists "When starting a new discussion on a mailing list, please do not reply to an existing message, instead start a fresh email. Even if you change the subject line of your email, other mail headers still track which thread you replied to and your question is "hidden" in that thread and gets less attention. It makes following discussions in the mailing list archives particularly difficult." -glen On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Mark Weiler <[hidden email]> wrote: > Speaking about visibility of portions of the population, there is the visibility of the machinery of government. Information Commissioner of Canada Suzanne Legault recently submitted a special report to Parliament which stated that the statutory right to access federal documents is at "risk of being totally obliterated." That's important. > > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > -- - |
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In reply to this post by Mark Weiler
On 15-Dec-10, at 8:22 PM, Mark Weiler wrote: Speaking about visibility of portions of the population, there is the visibility of the machinery of government. Information Commissioner of Canada Suzanne Legault recently submitted a special report to Parliament which stated that the statutory right to access federal documents is at "risk of being totally obliterated." That's important. Comment: I agree that this is important. Open access to government information takes commitment and legislation as well as technology. On a related topic, thanks to Tracey for forwarding the good news on the Liberal bill on the mandatory long form of the census. Is there any update on this? What I am hearing is that even if the bill passes, we still won't have the mandatory long form.. Am I misinformed? If not, how is this possible in a democracy? best, Heather Morrison, MLIS Doctor Candidate, SFU School of Communication The Imaginary Journal of Poetic Economics |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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In reply to this post by Tracey P. Lauriault
Hello,
Sorry for chiming in late, I only recently saw the map in question. I am curious to know what you think of making this data available. My first question, is why don't we collect this data in Canada? Secondly, though I am a proponent of more information allows us to make better decisions, sometimes more information can hurt us or actually hurt a system. For example, to take a banal example, Facebook actively prohibits you from knowing who is looking at your profile. My guess is that they feel that should you have this information, people's relationships to each other would be negatively impacted - I tend to agree. My question is, does making racial make-up publicly available (which is different from collecting it) help citizens. Or does, it further promote ghettoization of races into different neighbourhoods? I am not sure. Of course, immigrants naturally gravitate to specific neighbourhoods where they might have family and friends, but by making this information even more available, are we not encouraging this behaviour even more? And, should we be making decisions based on race? Arguably, having this information allows the US to say "Blacks have less access to high quality schools" and therefore put in place programs, but should the question not be "People of a certain income distribution have less access to high quality schools". What value is there in differentiating people by race. There are of course negatives (big ones). While I realize that the data in the US is per 500 people, it still seems dangerous. Clearly identifying people or groups by race (or religion) can lead to very bad things. Whether it is Hutu/Tutsis or Arab/Jewish or any other government run categorization of people based on race or religion, there are downsides that potentially outweigh any upsides. All in all, I think this is an interesting case of open-data and its merits. Should we collect this data? If so, should it be made public? Just my two cents. Have a great sunday! On 2010-12-15, at 10:54 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: really I am literate folks but sometimes I wonder! Shesh! |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/peopleandsociety/#edc
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Brun <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- Tracey P. Lauriault 613-234-2805 |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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No racial data there (as far as I can see) - though there is immigration stuff. Otherwise, cool stuff though.
On 2011-01-09, at 11:47 AM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/peopleandsociety/#edc |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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Hey Jonathan;
Just to be sure I understand what you are suggesting: a) You would like citizens to have access to this map: http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/usstates/usashape.htm b) and only allow government officials to have this one? http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer Cheers t On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:22 PM, Jonathan Brun <[hidden email]> wrote: > No racial data there (as far as I can see) - though there is immigration > stuff. Otherwise, cool stuff though. > JB > jonathanbrun.com > On 2011-01-09, at 11:47 AM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > > http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/peopleandsociety/#edc > > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Brun <[hidden email]> > wrote: >> >> Hello, >> Sorry for chiming in late, I only recently saw the map in question. I am >> curious to know what you think of making this data available. My first >> question, is why don't we collect this data in Canada? >> Secondly, though I am a proponent of more information allows us to make >> better decisions, sometimes more information can hurt us or actually hurt a >> system. For example, to take a banal example, Facebook actively prohibits >> you from knowing who is looking at your profile. My guess is that they feel >> that should you have this information, people's relationships to each other >> would be negatively impacted - I tend to agree. >> My question is, does making racial make-up publicly available (which is >> different from collecting it) help citizens. Or does, it further promote >> ghettoization of races into different neighbourhoods? I am not sure. Of >> course, immigrants naturally gravitate to specific neighbourhoods where they >> might have family and friends, but by making this information even more >> available, are we not encouraging this behaviour even more? >> And, should we be making decisions based on race? Arguably, having this >> information allows the US to say "Blacks have less access to high quality >> schools" and therefore put in place programs, but should the question not be >> "People of a certain income distribution have less access to high quality >> schools". What value is there in differentiating people by race. There are >> of course negatives (big ones). >> While I realize that the data in the US is per 500 people, it still seems >> dangerous. Clearly identifying people or groups by race (or religion) can >> lead to very bad things. Whether it is Hutu/Tutsis or Arab/Jewish or any >> other government run categorization of people based on race or religion, >> there are downsides that potentially outweigh any upsides. >> All in all, I think this is an interesting case of open-data and its >> merits. Should we collect this data? If so, should it be made public? >> Just my two cents. Have a great sunday! >> JB >> jonathanbrun.com >> On 2010-12-15, at 10:54 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: >> >> really I am literate folks but sometimes I wonder! Shesh! >> >> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >>> >>> Heather; >>> >>> The information is incredibly empowering to marginalized & segregated >>> groups. Ideally, we would all be treated equal, this information combined >>> with other variables tells us and shows us we are not. >>> >>> In this map I see density, diversity, difference, sparseness, urban, >>> rural, hubs and spokes, corridors and clusters, where different people live >>> and don't, I see raiNbows and i see distinct lines. This is the US Mosaic. >>> >>> Unfortunately, we cannot wipe this map clean of its underlying truths and >>> a blank map or empty sheet brings no justice in this case. >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Heather Morrison <[hidden email]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 15-Dec-10, at 6:42 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is normal. We have made maps like this for centuries >>>> >>>> We have made war, and practiced racism, for centuries and more. Are >>>> these normal too? >>>> >>>>> as these >>>>> inform you about the nature of neighbourhoods. If you notice each dot >>>>> represents 500 people so not an individual household. This type of >>>>> information is critically important as it tells you something about >>>>> segregated cities, it tells you something about economics and if you >>>>> combine that information with education, schools, proximity to transit >>>>> it tells you about who does and does not have access to resources. >>>>> People use this type of information for organizing and for lobbying >>>>> for resources. >>>> >>>> No doubt this information is useful - but to whom, and for what >>>> purposes? We can all see progressive reasons for using this information (I >>>> do) - but are all of us progressive? I don't find it hard at all to imagine >>>> this information used to facilitate discrimination. I am sure that this >>>> information is useful for lobbying for resources - but who has money to hire >>>> lobbyists? >>>> >>>> best, >>>> >>>> Heather >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Heather Morrison <[hidden email]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The maps are indeed pretty. However, I am wondering about the >>>>>> implications >>>>>> of identifying neighbourhoods based on ethnic/racial population >>>>>> (white/black/hispanic neighbourhoods). >>>>>> thoughts? >>>>>> Heather Morrison >>>>>> On 15-Dec-10, at 1:18 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Just imagine if our census data, well, first we had to imagine we had >>>>>> a census, and second if we had one and if past ones were actually >>>>>> available to us at no cost, just imagine what we could also do in >>>>>> Canada in terms of visualizing patterns across the nation! >>>>>> fyi - the Canadian census does not ask questions about cultural groups >>>>>> anymore so we will not be able to create such a map for 2011 even if >>>>>> the data were free. >>>>>> This NYTimes visualization is just beautiful. >>>>>> Mapping America: Every City, Every Block >>>>>> http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Tracey P. Lauriault >>>>>> 613-234-2805 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Tracey P. Lauriault >>>>> 613-234-2805 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Tracey P. Lauriault >>> 613-234-2805 >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Tracey P. Lauriault >> 613-234-2805 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > > > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > 613-234-2805 > > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > -- Tracey P. Lauriault 613-234-2805 |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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Ok, well I am not sure if anyone wants to have a serious discussion. My point was simply that I am not sure we should collect the racial information of people as it might lead to certain perceptions and policies that are potentially very bad for society. I am curious to know what this mailing list thinks of the issue.
But to frame the concern more widely, Besides privacy issues, what information should the government NOT collect and/or Not distribute? For example, should we create a map showing sexual orientation (homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, ...) of people - even if it is per 500 individuals? Same question for religious beliefs? Of course, in a perfectly non-racist, non-bigotted, non-sectarian society; there would be no need to be concerned with having this information, but alas, we have not evolved that far yet. Again, I am undecided on the issue - but I am keen to know what people think. On 2011-01-09, at 6:57 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
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Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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It's a very interesting issue, where I think looking back at the founding principles of the society is important. We live in a free country and we have a right to access to information. Hiding public information for the sake of preventing hypothetic "wrong" interpretation of the data would be an act of censorship (it's not illegal to be a racist, it's illegal to commit racist acts).
I would be more concerned about authorities deciding what's "wrong" than extreme interpretations of available data -- knowledge is probably not going to make people turn against each other... but we know what censorship and obscurantism does !
-- Sébastien 2011/1/9 Jonathan Brun <[hidden email]>
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Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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In reply to this post by Jonathan Brun-2
We do ask the questions about same sex couples in Canada. It is not done in the US but there are ways to track those data. See - questions asked on the census here - http://datalibre.ca/2010/07/24/2006-long-form-question-and-2006-2011-short-form-questions. I posted them on datalibre this summer.
I did a review of the US The Gay and lesbian Atlas (http://www.urban.org/publications/900695.html) for Cartographica in the fall of 2005 . Let me know if you would like to read it. I also have a copy of the Atlas that I will gladly lend you. It was produced by a great community think tank. The Census is tied to social spending like pensions, social welfare and the conjugal condition of unions determines the types of benefits people receive and the size of transfer payments to the provinces and territories. Aboriginal identity is also associated with benefits, linguistic laws are in place to ensure that resources are allocated based on demographic need, as is the distribution of moneys from the federal government to support refugees etc. Not sure what they are going to do now that these are no longer Census questions. It is really important to collect these data to plan for pensions, homes for the aged, schools, health care, maternity leave, and insurance for same sex couples. All benefits that same sex couples were precluded from as their unions were not accepted into law. Now that these are in Canada, we track them and resources are allocated accordingly. Knowing geographically where these couples are is also really important as the kids of these unions are going to school and schools need to ready their populations to accept these kids. Marriage for Gay and Lesbian Couples is not yet law in most states and these data are used to demonstrate where people live and the issues that surround them. These data and maps show society at large that gay and lesbian couples live in all states, the bible belt included. In Canada this question has been asked, if I am not mistaken since either the 2001 Census of the 2006 census. There was a time in the 70s and early 80s where common law unions where the big debate, whether or not to include that in the census. It was considered immoral for the longest time and people thought that tracking was about supporting the disintegration of family as opposed to simply a redefinition of it. Not tracking disproportionally negatively affected women. Interesting to note that Quebec has the highest number of common law couples and that matched with religion shows another really interesting story. Interestingly, in Canada, same sex couples grew in numbers faster than did hetero couples (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/070912/dq070912a-eng.htm) Both the questions on same sex unions and common law families represent the changing nature of Canadian families and how the state has to adjust its programs and expenditures and how society has to see and adapt these changes. There was a time when women who had children out of marriage were not counted and the state pretended they did not exist which meant they were exclude from supportive programs were further marginalize. Why count those disreputable women and their bastards! The current court challenge over the census in Canada is called the Equal right to be counted http://socialplanningtoronto.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Save-the-CensusPR.pdf, the partners on the case are Arab, Aboriginal, Women, and Immigrant groups who know that if they are not counted they will disappear from public policy and that would be detrimental to their communities. There are great inequalities associated with gender and ethno-cultural visible minorities in Canada that will go unreported and unaccounted for, as was the case for unwed mothers in the 60s and earlier. These data are also used to assess how we are fairing on Charter rights (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html#anchorbo-ga:l_I-gb:s_15) and equal opportunity programs. In terms of privacy Statcan has very strict rules and if the population of a neighbourhood is easily identifiable they block out those data. The smaller the geographies the more they get blocked out. For instance, if a dissemination area only has one apartment building in it, then the data from that building will blanked out. You cannot pinpoint a household from the data you get from StatCan, it is always anonimized and aggregated in a way that you cannot determine individuals. Even in the US maps of the NYTimes, the dots represent proportions in a group of 500 and the geography is uncertain. Probably the centroid of an enumeration area and not an address. I agree with you that it would be better if we did not have to revert to essentialist arguments about race, orientation and sex. But these are factors in our society, and maybe one day we will not have to count these and track these as they will have disappeared, until then, we know that that is not the case and we have to keep those issues on the map until which time they becomes irrelevant. The map is not the territory and current maps of this kind are static objects, but neighbourhoods and people are not, these are dynamic and change. Cheers t On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Jonathan Brun <[hidden email]> wrote: > Ok, well I am not sure if anyone wants to have a serious discussion. My > point was simply that I am not sure we should collect the racial information > of people as it might lead to certain perceptions and policies that are > potentially very bad for society. I am curious to know what this mailing > list thinks of the issue. > But to frame the concern more widely, Besides privacy issues, what > information should the government NOT collect and/or Not distribute? > For example, should we create a map showing sexual orientation (homosexual, > heterosexual, bisexual, ...) of people - even if it is per 500 individuals? > Same question for religious beliefs? > Of course, in a perfectly non-racist, non-bigotted, non-sectarian society; > there would be no need to be concerned with having this information, but > alas, we have not evolved that far yet. > Again, I am undecided on the issue - but I am keen to know what people > think. > JB > jonathanbrun.com > On 2011-01-09, at 6:57 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > > Hey Jonathan; > > Just to be sure I understand what you are suggesting: > > a) You would like citizens to have access to this map: > > http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/usstates/usashape.htm > > b) and only allow government officials to have this one? > > http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer > > Cheers > t > > > > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:22 PM, Jonathan Brun <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > No racial data there (as far as I can see) - though there is immigration > > stuff. Otherwise, cool stuff though. > > JB > > jonathanbrun.com > > On 2011-01-09, at 11:47 AM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > > http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/peopleandsociety/#edc > > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Brun <[hidden email]> > > wrote: > > Hello, > > Sorry for chiming in late, I only recently saw the map in question. I am > > curious to know what you think of making this data available. My first > > question, is why don't we collect this data in Canada? > > Secondly, though I am a proponent of more information allows us to make > > better decisions, sometimes more information can hurt us or actually hurt a > > system. For example, to take a banal example, Facebook actively prohibits > > you from knowing who is looking at your profile. My guess is that they feel > > that should you have this information, people's relationships to each other > > would be negatively impacted - I tend to agree. > > My question is, does making racial make-up publicly available (which is > > different from collecting it) help citizens. Or does, it further promote > > ghettoization of races into different neighbourhoods? I am not sure. Of > > course, immigrants naturally gravitate to specific neighbourhoods where they > > might have family and friends, but by making this information even more > > available, are we not encouraging this behaviour even more? > > And, should we be making decisions based on race? Arguably, having this > > information allows the US to say "Blacks have less access to high quality > > schools" and therefore put in place programs, but should the question not be > > "People of a certain income distribution have less access to high quality > > schools". What value is there in differentiating people by race. There are > > of course negatives (big ones). > > While I realize that the data in the US is per 500 people, it still seems > > dangerous. Clearly identifying people or groups by race (or religion) can > > lead to very bad things. Whether it is Hutu/Tutsis or Arab/Jewish or any > > other government run categorization of people based on race or religion, > > there are downsides that potentially outweigh any upsides. > > All in all, I think this is an interesting case of open-data and its > > merits. Should we collect this data? If so, should it be made public? > > Just my two cents. Have a great sunday! > > JB > > jonathanbrun.com > > On 2010-12-15, at 10:54 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > > really I am literate folks but sometimes I wonder! Shesh! > > On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> > > wrote: > > Heather; > > The information is incredibly empowering to marginalized & segregated > > groups. Ideally, we would all be treated equal, this information combined > > with other variables tells us and shows us we are not. > > In this map I see density, diversity, difference, sparseness, urban, > > rural, hubs and spokes, corridors and clusters, where different people live > > and don't, I see raiNbows and i see distinct lines. This is the US Mosaic. > > Unfortunately, we cannot wipe this map clean of its underlying truths and > > a blank map or empty sheet brings no justice in this case. > > On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Heather Morrison <[hidden email]> > > wrote: > > On 15-Dec-10, at 6:42 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > > This is normal. We have made maps like this for centuries > > We have made war, and practiced racism, for centuries and more. Are > > these normal too? > > as these > > inform you about the nature of neighbourhoods. If you notice each dot > > represents 500 people so not an individual household. This type of > > information is critically important as it tells you something about > > segregated cities, it tells you something about economics and if you > > combine that information with education, schools, proximity to transit > > it tells you about who does and does not have access to resources. > > People use this type of information for organizing and for lobbying > > for resources. > > No doubt this information is useful - but to whom, and for what > > purposes? We can all see progressive reasons for using this information (I > > do) - but are all of us progressive? I don't find it hard at all to imagine > > this information used to facilitate discrimination. I am sure that this > > information is useful for lobbying for resources - but who has money to hire > > lobbyists? > > best, > > Heather > > > > On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Heather Morrison <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > The maps are indeed pretty. However, I am wondering about the > > implications > > of identifying neighbourhoods based on ethnic/racial population > > (white/black/hispanic neighbourhoods). > > thoughts? > > Heather Morrison > > On 15-Dec-10, at 1:18 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > > Just imagine if our census data, well, first we had to imagine we had > > a census, and second if we had one and if past ones were actually > > available to us at no cost, just imagine what we could also do in > > Canada in terms of visualizing patterns across the nation! > > fyi - the Canadian census does not ask questions about cultural groups > > anymore so we will not be able to create such a map for 2011 even if > > the data were free. > > This NYTimes visualization is just beautiful. > > Mapping America: Every City, Every Block > > http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer > > -- > > Tracey P. Lauriault > > 613-234-2805 > > _______________________________________________ > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > > > > -- > > Tracey P. Lauriault > > 613-234-2805 > > _______________________________________________ > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > > > -- > > Tracey P. Lauriault > > 613-234-2805 > > > > > > -- > > Tracey P. Lauriault > > 613-234-2805 > > > _______________________________________________ > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > > > -- > > Tracey P. Lauriault > > 613-234-2805 > > > _______________________________________________ > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > > > > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > 613-234-2805 > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > -- Tracey P. Lauriault 613-234-2805 <input onclick="if(typeof(jsCall)=='function'){jsCall();}else{setTimeout('jsCall()',500);}" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"> |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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Not sure if the three of us have the free time to keep this going, but I find the idea quite interesting. A couple comments on Tracey and Seb's reply.
I, as a supporter of same sex marriage, would obviously want us to ask about such marriages so that we know where married couples live. My concern is with the question of asking about sexual orientation of a person - nothing to do with marriage. I actually think we should just track marriages and not differentiate between same sex and traditional - since both should be seen as the same under the law. Tracking aboriginals for policy decisions is probably unavoidable considering their special status, so no argument there. I am still unsure about tracking race (just as I do not think we should track religion). As per Seb's argument that knowledge does not make people turn against each other, I have to completely disagree - see the current state of Muslim integration debates in Europe or take a look at the way Hutus and Tutsis treated each other in Rwanda when it was marked what tribe they belonged to in their passports and job applications. I agree, that is different from performing a census but my point I am not sure tracking the race (aboriginals excluded) or religion that a canadian citizen helps build an equal society. Just as I do not think the government should fund religious schools or courts, I do not think that a society should give different treatment to specific races (again excluding First Nations) or religions, and if that is the case (arguable), why collect and disseminate the data? Sometimes, it is better not to know until we are ready to know. Obviously sort of playing the devil's advocate here. Gotta get to work now! On 2011-01-10, at 12:16 AM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: We do ask the questions about same sex couples in Canada. It is not done in the US but there are ways to track those data. See - questions asked on the census here - http://datalibre.ca/2010/07/24/2006-long-form-question-and-2006-2011-short-form-questions. I posted them on datalibre this summer. |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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Le 10 janv. 2011 à 10:31, Jonathan Brun a écrit : > Sometimes, it is better not to know until we are ready to know. It summarizes part of the debate. The issue is more about memory and archives, and the balance (tension?) in between the two. There are times when it seems reasonable to do or not do something and there are times which make us regret to have done or not these actions. Tracking for example the ethnic origin of someone might have a big impact in let's say in 50 years from now, Canada was becoming a hyper fascist country. The issue is that we can't predict the future. The scale of knowledge and the speed in which this knowledge can have effects of global mobs. This is a new reality. -- Karl Dubost Montréal, QC, Canada http://www.la-grange.net/karl/ |
Re: NYTimes: Mapping America: Every City, Every Block
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In reply to this post by Jonathan Brun-2
"why collect and disseminate the data? Sometimes, it is better not to know until we are ready to know. Obviously sort of playing the devil's advocate here."
Until WHO is ready to know? The general public? Those first insiders that will show a system is broken and unable to ensure the equality is supposedly guarantees? Rebels that will first bring the issue to public consciousness? Activists that will keep the issue in media?
Your racist neighbour? Colleagues? "We" is really vague. On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Jonathan Brun <[hidden email]> wrote:
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