Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
 
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The last consultation (http://de-en.gc.ca/home/) when he was Industry was doomed to oblivion, trickery (removal of the census submission which was #1 voted on) and inaction. So I am never sure if this is for real or a way to gain uncritical flattery to his "openness" & "transparency" & a bid for him as the next leader of the you know who's!
Lets not forget this is the gov that destroyed the census, wants to trash the gun registry dbase, closed government library's including CISTI, decimating Library and Archives Canada, silencing science and closed any think tank critical of its policies. Is it a consultation, yes, but lets not forget who these people really are & what they really stand for!
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Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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Here is the link to it - http://www.open.gc.ca/index-eng.asp
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote: The last consultation (http://de-en.gc.ca/home/) when he was Industry was doomed to oblivion, trickery (removal of the census submission which was #1 voted on) and inaction. So I am never sure if this is for real or a way to gain uncritical flattery to his "openness" & "transparency" & a bid for him as the next leader of the you know who's! |
Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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And here's a link to the questions: http://www.open.gc.ca/consult/cq-qc-eng.asp
It takes about 20 clicks of consent forms, etc. before you get to the first question, so it may be a time-saver to read the questions first. On 2011-12-07, at 12:38 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: Here is the link to it - http://www.open.gc.ca/index-eng.asp |
Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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In reply to this post by Tracey P. Lauriault
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The last consultation (http://de-en.gc.ca/home/) when he was Industry was > doomed to oblivion, trickery (removal of the census submission which was #1 > voted on) and inaction. So I am never sure if this is for real or a way to > gain uncritical flattery to his "openness" & "transparency" & a bid for him > as the next leader of the you know who's! > > Lets not forget this is the gov that destroyed the census, wants to trash > the gun registry dbase, closed government library's including CISTI, > decimating Library and Archives Canada, silencing science and closed any > think tank critical of its policies. Is it a consultation, yes, but lets > not forget who these people really are & what they really stand for! Wow. I don't know what to say about that that last sentence, except that it makes me pretty uncomfortable. I'm not sure that the Conservatives have a golden record on transparency or control, but I don't know if the Liberals did either, and the population has never given the NDP a chance to demonstrate themselves in that regard. I don't really want advice from anyone on this list about what a party is "really" about or what they "really" stand for. I'm able to make up my own mind and I imagine others are too. And that degree of partisanship is going to result in flamewars or simply alienate people from this list, which I don't think is a good thing. > > http://www.marketwatch.com/story/minister-clement-announces-open-government-consultation-2011-12-06 > > > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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In reply to this post by Tracey P. Lauriault
Correction: CISTI was not closed.
It just had its staff/budget reduced by 70%. I was one of the 70%. -Glen On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote: > The last consultation (http://de-en.gc.ca/home/) when he was Industry was > doomed to oblivion, trickery (removal of the census submission which was #1 > voted on) and inaction. So I am never sure if this is for real or a way to > gain uncritical flattery to his "openness" & "transparency" & a bid for him > as the next leader of the you know who's! > > Lets not forget this is the gov that destroyed the census, wants to trash > the gun registry dbase, closed government library's including CISTI, > decimating Library and Archives Canada, silencing science and closed any > think tank critical of its policies. Is it a consultation, yes, but lets > not forget who these people really are & what they really stand for! > > http://www.marketwatch.com/story/minister-clement-announces-open-government-consultation-2011-12-06 > > > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss -- - http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/ - |
Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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Thanks for the clarification Glen! I guess it was one of the lucky one?
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Glen Newton <[hidden email]> wrote: Correction: CISTI was not closed. |
Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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Yes, so lucky! ;-)
-Glen On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote: > Thanks for the clarification Glen! I guess it was one of the lucky one? > > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Glen Newton <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Correction: CISTI was not closed. >> >> It just had its staff/budget reduced by 70%. >> I was one of the 70%. >> >> -Glen >> >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >> > The last consultation (http://de-en.gc.ca/home/) when he was Industry >> > was >> > doomed to oblivion, trickery (removal of the census submission which was >> > #1 >> > voted on) and inaction. So I am never sure if this is for real or a way >> > to >> > gain uncritical flattery to his "openness" & "transparency" & a bid for >> > him >> > as the next leader of the you know who's! >> > >> > Lets not forget this is the gov that destroyed the census, wants to >> > trash >> > the gun registry dbase, closed government library's including CISTI, >> > decimating Library and Archives Canada, silencing science and closed any >> > think tank critical of its policies. Is it a consultation, yes, but >> > lets >> > not forget who these people really are & what they really stand for! >> > >> > >> > http://www.marketwatch.com/story/minister-clement-announces-open-government-consultation-2011-12-06 >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> > [hidden email] >> > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> >> >> >> -- >> - >> http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/ >> - >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss -- - http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/ - |
Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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Not all political parties deserve equal consideration and doing so inevitably shifts the dialogue towards the extremes. See United States of America, 2011.
JB
On 2011-12-07, at 3:24 PM, Glen Newton wrote:
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Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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Better put:
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” ― Isaac Asimov On 2011-12-07, at 5:30 PM, Jonathan Brun wrote:
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Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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I really feel like a conversation has gone into another reality dimension (the geek dimension) when someone quotes Isaac Asimov as a substantial point. Are you saying that people who have important positions in their lifestyle (like, say, viability of their farmland) should just stand aside while "intellectuals" tell them what to do? That sounds very creepy. Everyone is doing everything for themselves, "intellectuals" included, especially the motivated ones. And you're bolstering a disenfranchised perspective with an elitist view. To Tracey's original point, I find the tension very interesting in open data when you consider so much of it supports a small government solution (supposed Conservative goal). Dismantle government, turn it over to business! (I know, most of us just want more efficient, approachable government. But that's just one possible outcome). In lieu of immediate breakthroughs in power, transportation, etc, I'd like to see a broad public project of 2012 - 13 that encourages participation in science and decision-making using social networking and consultations, leading to very linked and available information and eventually massive participation and efficiency (which would require a linked open data approach, not these individual data sets), but I don't think any of the existing parties really see that as important. David On 7 December 2011 17:33, Jonathan Brun <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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I agree we should steer clear of political debates here.
Any political party could be interested in open data. Open data is part of any attempt to create a small and efficient government. However, I remain unconvinced that this "conservative" government is interested in a small government (see budget deficit), let alone efficient.
While I believe in an open channel of communication with the public; experts do matter. Not everyone's opinion is of equal value when formulating government policy that will affect all of us for many years (see "Experts" vs. Census and C-10). My main point is that by putting all political parties on an equal footing with regards to open data initiatives, we legitimize their party lines. It is a delicate balance, one we have tried to manage in Montréal, I think successfully. But we, as open data and open government advocates, cannot blindly applaud every single appearance of government opening. If we do, that support gives the wider public the impression the government is actually opening up and listening to the citizens. If you believe in deep open data and open government, I think you need to sometimes take principled stands on certain issues. Just as Tracey has been very vocal on the cancelling of the Census, we need to decide what should be supported and what should not. I am not sure if my point is clear, I hope so. On 2011-12-07, at 6:20 PM, David H. Mason wrote:
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Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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To get back to the substance of the government's current action...
As a consultation, this is rather tame compared to others I've participated in (CRTC consultations on questions like usage-based billing tend to be contentious). It's more of a questionnaire on how to make the web sites data.gc.ca and open.gc.ca more useful. My comments on each question are in parentheses. From http://www.open.gc.ca/consult/cq-qc-eng.asp 1. What could be done to make it easier for you to find and use government data provided online? (data.gc.ca is a good start. I'd like a better search/browse interface, as browsing 260000+ datasets for something interesting isn' t easy.) 2. What types of open data sets would be of interest to you? (This is the same as using "Suggest a Dataset". Most people haven't a clue what data you want, so if you don't ask, you'll probably never get it.) 3. How would you use or manipulate this data? (The best arguments for open data are good use cases, so I recommend taking more time on this question.) 4. What could be done to make it easier for you to find government information online? (Free ATI requests, instead of $5 charge. What else would you like to see?) 5. What are the priority areas of information that you would like to see released on government websites? (All the areas they suggest are interesting, though maybe prioritize financials and info submitted to Parl by depts and agencies) 6-7. [Questions about online consultations] 8. Are there approaches used by other governments that you believe the Government of Canada could/should model? 9. Other comments or suggestions? 10. How would you like to stay connected to Canada’s Open Government initiative? (@TBS_Canada, etc.) The best thing you can do to bury data.gc.ca is to not participate in it - by not using its data, suggesting datasets, or responding to its consultation. Do that, and any government (Conservative, Liberal, NDP) would be rational in cutting the project. My take is that if you want to change government then (revolutions aside) you have to work with them, whether you love or hate them. I think if you care about open government in Canada, then you should support initiatives with your participation. You can do that without applause or endorsement. On 2011-12-07, at 6:35 PM, Jonathan Brun wrote: > I agree we should steer clear of political debates here. > > Any political party could be interested in open data. Open data is part of any attempt to create a small and efficient government. However, I remain unconvinced that this "conservative" government is interested in a small government (see budget deficit), let alone efficient. > > While I believe in an open channel of communication with the public; experts do matter. Not everyone's opinion is of equal value when formulating government policy that will affect all of us for many years (see "Experts" vs. Census and C-10). > > My main point is that by putting all political parties on an equal footing with regards to open data initiatives, we legitimize their party lines. It is a delicate balance, one we have tried to manage in Montréal, I think successfully. But we, as open data and open government advocates, cannot blindly applaud every single appearance of government opening. If we do, that support gives the wider public the impression the government is actually opening up and listening to the citizens. > > If you believe in deep open data and open government, I think you need to sometimes take principled stands on certain issues. Just as Tracey has been very vocal on the cancelling of the Census, we need to decide what should be supported and what should not. > > I am not sure if my point is clear, I hope so. > > JB > MontrealOuvert.net > jonathanbrun.com > > On 2011-12-07, at 6:20 PM, David H. Mason wrote: > >> >> I really feel like a conversation has gone into another reality dimension (the geek dimension) when someone quotes Isaac Asimov as a substantial point. >> >> Are you saying that people who have important positions in their lifestyle (like, say, viability of their farmland) should just stand aside while "intellectuals" tell them what to do? That sounds very creepy. >> >> Everyone is doing everything for themselves, "intellectuals" included, especially the motivated ones. >> >> And you're bolstering a disenfranchised perspective with an elitist view. >> >> To Tracey's original point, I find the tension very interesting in open data when you consider so much of it supports a small government solution (supposed Conservative goal). Dismantle government, turn it over to business! (I know, most of us just want more efficient, approachable government. But that's just one possible outcome). >> >> In lieu of immediate breakthroughs in power, transportation, etc, I'd like to see a broad public project of 2012 - 13 that encourages participation in science and decision-making using social networking and consultations, leading to very linked and available information and eventually massive participation and efficiency (which would require a linked open data approach, not these individual data sets), but I don't think any of the existing parties really see that as important. >> >> David >> >> On 7 December 2011 17:33, Jonathan Brun <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Better put: >> >> “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” >> ― Isaac Asimov >> >> JB >> MontrealOuvert.net >> >> On 2011-12-07, at 5:30 PM, Jonathan Brun wrote: >> >>> Not all political parties deserve equal consideration and doing so inevitably shifts the dialogue towards the extremes. See United States of America, 2011. >>> >>> JB >>> >>> On 2011-12-07, at 3:24 PM, Glen Newton wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, so lucky! ;-) >>>> >>>> -Glen >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> Thanks for the clarification Glen! I guess it was one of the lucky one? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Glen Newton <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Correction: CISTI was not closed. >>>>>> >>>>>> It just had its staff/budget reduced by 70%. >>>>>> I was one of the 70%. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Glen >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> The last consultation (http://de-en.gc.ca/home/) when he was Industry >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> doomed to oblivion, trickery (removal of the census submission which was >>>>>>> #1 >>>>>>> voted on) and inaction. So I am never sure if this is for real or a way >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> gain uncritical flattery to his "openness" & "transparency" & a bid for >>>>>>> him >>>>>>> as the next leader of the you know who's! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lets not forget this is the gov that destroyed the census, wants to >>>>>>> trash >>>>>>> the gun registry dbase, closed government library's including CISTI, >>>>>>> decimating Library and Archives Canada, silencing science and closed any >>>>>>> think tank critical of its policies. Is it a consultation, yes, but >>>>>>> lets >>>>>>> not forget who these people really are & what they really stand for! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/minister-clement-announces-open-government-consultation-2011-12-06 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> - >>>>>> http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> - >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> - >>>> http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/ >>>> - >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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Thanks James, I have sent this around to a number of data associations I know.
Cheers t
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 9:47 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote: To get back to the substance of the government's current action... |
Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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Hey,
Sorry for resuscitating an old thread, but I think this one is important. I still think it is important that the Open Data (and Open Government) community take a stand beyond simple consultations. I think the points James made below are excellent, but these requests for data sets and others should possibly be shared more widely. What about some sort of site that tracks openness of canadian governments and requests and time to response that the general public can understand and media can use to write stories? Just thoughts on a rainy morning. P.S. First mention of OpenNorth in the national press: On 2011-12-09, at 12:07 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: Thanks James, I have sent this around to a number of data associations I know. |
Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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It's conceivable to write a site that proxies to the data request page on data.gc.ca (or other destinations), so as to maintain a public archive of requests. But it's a question of sufficient publicity to make it worthwhile. WhatDoTheyKnow/Alaveteli do this for FOI requests. Running an Alaveteli site is non-trivial in terms of administrative tasks, however (getting the site up is by far the easy part).
On 2011-12-15, at 8:16 AM, Jonathan Brun wrote:
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Re: Minister Clement Announces Open Government Consultation
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Hi James - I'd be willing to publicize such a site. I think actually
it wouldn't be that hard to get it profile.
On 11-12-17 9:28 AM, James McKinney wrote: It's conceivable to write a site that proxies to the data request page on data.gc.ca (or other destinations), so as to maintain a public archive of requests. But it's a question of sufficient publicity to make it worthwhile. WhatDoTheyKnow/Alaveteli do this for FOI requests. Running an Alaveteli site is non-trivial in terms of administrative tasks, however (getting the site up is by far the easy part). |
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