Posted by
liss jeffrey on
Feb 11, 2007; 1:29pm
URL: http://civicaccess.416.s1.nabble.com/front-de-liberation-de-codes-postal-tp884p896.html
Hi Stephane:
Yes I think there should be a write up of what you did and perhaps others might also contribute.
Let's anticipate here: the ban by Google Earth, would that be because they did not want a mass mailer or spammer using their service to harvest such info? Do they have policies against scraping and are there reasons?
Is that what's going on with Stats Can? I saw no reference to this in anyone's posts and I sincerely do not know.
This is very different, obviously, from cost recovery.
David Mason and I had a very good response from Hansard ( but again, we did not go beyond the fact finding stage because he got too busy and my project is civic engagement in democratic life, not scraping and coding the scraping per se. I am not looking for extra projects as I am quite busy ( as is everyone else,) but David as you know Stephane , is a lead developer with our citizen engagement platforms including the foreign policy dialogue, and a director of the eCommons/agora, and mutual support is how we always operate.
Scraping is a means not an end and it's that end of shaping civic engagement ( not only access) that I am interested in and competent to produce. One of many rules in our byDesign eLab was always 'no geek ghettos' meaning that we all had to find ways to reciprocate and participate in one another's universes, a flattening of the divide between developers and producers you might say.
I do not start from a position of thinking government is evil or incompetent ( not saying others do, but it is a tempting position and I think mistaken), and we will be stronger IMO if as you suggest Stephane we consolidate what we propose to do, the reasons why we want to do this ( as is happening now in civic access wiki and on list), summarize what people have tried to do so far and the outcomes, give a list of successful projects elsewhere ( UK, USA, elsewhere??), establish our legitimacy and intentions, and then go find out how to remove the obstacles to democratic action.
I am doubtless missing lots, and while hardly naive may well be overly optimistic, but the way in can be through the front door and not just the back door. In any event (1) to get genuine support we have to try these steps.
In any event (2) the alternative has not yet produced the result we seek.
One plan is to have a strategy ready by Feb. 24 so that's 2 weeks to get the arguments assembled.
Other ideas?
DrJ
On 2/10/07, Stéphane Zagar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Interesting week end !
Liss : there's also a kind of "They work for you" here :
<a href="http://www.howdtheyvote.ca/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.howdtheyvote.ca/ I'm sure Cory (the founder of this website)
would be happy to have help and to see hansards more accessible !
For my part : I got banned from Yahoo Maps after I retrieved less than
300 postal codes with there coordinates :) Fortunately, thanks to
Google Earth, I found a way to retrieve postal codes faster (3 codes /
sec) and without any ban after 1 hour and a half of working. But it's
only 20 000 codes (with only 5000 of them valid) on potentially 12
millions (hum). I'll see if I have the courage to continue this...
quest.
I also wrote a request for an access to information to Natural
Resources Canada. Probably it won't work but who knows...
I'll try to put some things that I did on the wiki tomorrow. Concerning
the screen scrapping I wonder if I should explain how I did exactly,
what to think ?
Steph
liss jeffrey wrote:
Yes i support this also, and will take the idea to our New Democracy
Workshop on Monday when we next meet ( <a href="http://netizen-news.ca" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">netizen-news.ca has details).
Our projects, including ecommons/agora ( <a href="http://ecommons.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ecommons.net ), and <a href="http://bydesign-elab.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
bydesign-elab.net
include technical experts and developers as well as community and
policy experts and producers. The many sister sites we have created are
designed to be constellation sites (meaning no one main body), orbiting
under the eLab slogan ' we exist not to reinvent the wheel, but to
connect the spokes.'
So you could say that we are all operating in a kind of parallel public
interest space :)
In line with our strategic approach, not reinventing wheels, and this
civic access idea, I can contact the existing Data Liberation Front,
which has members from Stats Can. I am sure they could offer some solid
advice on how to make this work.
We could each act in our respective areas of competence, and report
into the wiki and on our own sites.
Previously while helping David Mason with his project to make a
Canadian they work for you site ( the original is British), I arranged
an Ottawa meeting with a spokesperson for Hansard, as David ( and his
group) wanted to reuse Hansard data.
That project alas fell victim to David ( and Stefan's) time crunch,
but this idea would I am sure enjoy the same support from our various
associates.
So we are on board with this idea and can help.
Liss Jeffrey, PhD
Diector, McLuhan global research network
On 2/9/07, Olivier
Charbonneau <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Civic Access !
I am sorry for not responding to these emails - many fires to take care
of (and many more to start). First off, I am not a lawyer and this is
forwarded on the list for discussion purposes only. Facts are not
protected by copyright, UNLESS there is some originality in the
selection. An exhaustive list of facts CANNOT BE PROTECTED BY
COPYRIGHT. On the other hand, one could impose CONTRACTUAL limitations
to using data (unoriginal compilation of facts)... but not within the
copyright framework.
This being said, I can get the major library association to support
this action - in fact, I am working on a coalition of
consumer/library/education institutions, and I hope to be able to
provide documentation in the next few months... but in the interim,
once a consensus is reached from your group, please contact me directly
(I can't read all the posts on the list - no time) and we<ll discuss
how we can get the library organisations on board.
Take care group - and congratulations for the awsome energy and work !
Olivier
PS. here is what I am working on these days:
<a href="http://www.booknetcanada.com/events/index.html" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.booknetcanada.com/events/index.html
(look at the panel at 4:15 on March 21st)
Many thanks! Merci et au plaisir!
Olivier Charbonneau
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Subject Librarian, Concordia University
Accountancy, Decision Sciences, Management of Information Systems
Phone: 514-848-2424 x7362
Email: [hidden email]
Blog: <a href="http://www.culturelibre.ca/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.culturelibre.ca/
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Hugh McGuire wrote:
of course it's a civicaccess action ;-) !
actually thinking about this... and this is how I envision
CivicAccess progressing... as a central place where the spokes of
many different projects all join with a shared belief in free data
access. but we really need the projects (some exist already, eg:
<a href="http://howdtheyvote.ca" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">howdtheyvote.ca, <a href="http://openpolitics.ca" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
openpolitics.ca, <a href="http://netizen-news.ca" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">netizen-news.ca etc; some could be
new initiatives of/inspired by civicaccess ... or just related to the
mission).
h.
On Feb 9, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
I think this is a great idea and I would really like it if could be
considered as as CivicAccess or COACID action.
For those who might be able to get something like this off the ground.
There is tons of great information here:
<a href="http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/CensusAction" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/CensusAction
It was an activity primarily aimed at the CENSUS however some of the
documentation can be used for the Free the Postal Code Data as well
and
there was some good discussion.
I created a spot for people to collaborate here:
<a href="http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Actions" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Actions, I did not know how you wanted to
call it or what the tagline should so edit away.
Hugh McGuire wrote:
I suggest in addition to data cracking/hacking work, we consider
writing an open letter to the government agencies & ministers,
opposition MPs, and journalists, and try to put some pressure on. And
get an online petition going (I don't think they do much, but they
give something for bloggers to link to). This should be accompanied
by a concerted attempt to get specific organizations to support the
project (NGOs & universities, but also, say, the Bloc, the NDP, maybe
even the now-oppositional Liberals).
perhaps a url? FLCP.ca ... Front de Liberation Code Postal ... it's
available! ;).
Again, this "tiny" little data project demonstrates so clearly the
dunderheadedness of Canada's govt data policies, in a way that many
people could understand.
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