Posted by
Tracey P. Lauriault-2 on
Feb 22, 2006; 12:32am
URL: http://civicaccess.416.s1.nabble.com/public-announcement-draft-1-tp256p295.html
see inserts!
Thank goodness for civic access - i am doing this during an entire afternoon discussing
metadata modelling! ich!
On Feb 21, "Michael Lenczner" <
[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> comments inline below
>
>
> On 2/21/06, Tracey P. Lauriault <
[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 20, "Michael Lenczner" <
[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Here's draft version 0.98 of the public announcement.
> > >
> > > Unless anyone has problems with it I would suggest that we use it.
> > > I'll wait 24 hours for comments/suggestions.
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > We would like to announce the launch of a new online space for
> > > Canadian civic engagement - Citizens for Open Access to Civic
> > > Information and Data (CivicAccess). CivicAccess is being founded by
> > > librarians, civil servants, GIS and IT professionals, academics,
> > > lawyers, open-source advocates, and community planners from across
> > > Canada. We are motivated by the belief that open civic information
> > > and data are necessary tools for being engaged citizens in an
> > > "information society".
> >
> > remove - tools
>
> done.
>
> > >
> > > Our goals are:
> > >
> > > 1) to encourage all levels of government to make civic data freely
> > > accessible in open formats and to work with them to help make that
> > > happen.
> >
> > change - freely accessible - to - accessible at no cost for non commercial purposes -
> > reason - freely is the current modis operanti but at a cost! excluding freedom of
> > information (FOI). non commercial is important as the assumption is that a business can
> > afford to do this.
>
> I respectfully disagree with this. I think that I should be able to
> make a map of montreal that is advertiser supported and I should be
> able to include potholes taken from a municipal or burrough database.
> I think that that database should be freely accessible to all - not
> just to non-profit entities. Frankly, a lot of projects might not
> happen if google adwords are not allowed.
Ok! Just hard to get buy in! Abolishing cost recovery all together is a hard sell.
>
> I understand that we might want to aim for "free for non-profits" in
> some cases as a temporary measure, but i think the real eventual goal
> is "free for anyone to use + redistribute". Especially in this new
> world of web-services and GIS where one website or one map will call
> information from 10 different databases, I think that it is too
> restrictive to have no commercial uses at all.
Yes! distributed interoperable mapping is becoming the norm. And Yes i agree but again a
hard sell, but we can try! Also the standards are not on our side as mapped civic data
are not available in these formats and are locked into proprietary formats. Also, this
implies wiping out & challenging an entire data industry both private and public in real
terms. Never popular, but is well within the objectives of Civic Access! Alternatively -
no cost for all, some cost for some, and all cost for some! The first access step has been
the data liberation initiative (DLI), and a proposal is to extend that out the the non
profit sector. That way you use and existing infrastructure and can convince university
libraries and also state institutions to support that by extending their services for a
good cause with little extra overhead. Then industry comes along and lobbies for its own
interests. A much more capable and well resourced sector that can turn a profit on data.
To date the argument is, that industry can pay as they can generate revenue with the
information, while npos do not generate revenue but knowledge.
Perhaps the question is what are the steps required to get all the data free for all and
perhaps it needs to be focussed targeted efforts in certain areas to start and then
broaden. This is a nice strategy question for those who want to focus their efforts in
those areas.
>
> I wonder if you're thinking mainly of the "data" (typical large data
> sets like mapping and census info) as compared to "lighter
> information" like real-estate tax records, city council minutes,
> restaurant sanitation checks, water and air polution tests, provincial
> parlimentary records, etc. Are you saying that this information
> should be only free for non-commercial use? Why shouldn't i be able
> to collect that info and make it available to my neighbors on an
> advertiser supported website?. Because if I'm forced to pay for each
> type of information there is no way that I would ever start collecting
> it all.
you are correct, and bring up a good point regarding semantics. When I use the term data
i am thinking science, census, geomatics, remote sensing, city infrastructure - data and
not data captured in a city council meeting etc. The data you refer to above I consider
to be civic information currently available at no cost but not in the best form and nor is
it easy to find or access.
>
> Maybe *big* business can afford to do this, but I think we need to
> encourage *little* business (small entrepreneurs) to get involved /
> interested in civic information. They are great engines of innovation
> and are often more user-centered than projecs by+for geeks. Examples
> - I want the local weeklies to have access to this info and to
> re-print it. Even the weeklies that *aren't* funded by big companies.
> Or Ile Sans Fil (my group). What if we had a business owned by our
> non-profit association that charged burroughs $500 a month to operate
> a portal for them?
yup! true, but the argument, (not my beliefs or values) will remain that industry big or
small can generate revenue and why not have that revenue get back to the gov somehow as
that revenue pays for citizens and npo's.
>
> Paying the *big* business prices for commercial licenses of this
> information/data is going to keep them out.
good point. twarts innovation.
>
> But this a valid point that we can debate/discuss. Anyone else have
> some opinions on this?
any others! Russel what are your thoughts on this?
>
> >
> > >
> > > 2) to support projects that use new online technologies to enable
> > > citizens to easily find and share public information and data as well
> > > as to re-contextualize that information in ways that make it
> > > meaningful to them.
> >
> > hugh's changes here?
> > >
> I'm still struggling with the wording of hugh's suggestion. I like
> it, but I'm wondering if it's distracting - or I'm worrying if it
> sounds too idealistic or smthng?
it is pretty good! Less idealistic than free data for industry in this current fiscally
conservative environment ;)
>
> > > Access to civic information and data help us make informed choices as
> > > voters. In addition they help to ensure government transparency and
> > > accountability - essential elements of a democracy. In addition these
> > > are the bits and bytes required to understand, critically analyze, and
> > > re-envision the communities in which we live.
> >
> > >
> > > As engaged citizens of our neighborhoods, cities, and provinces we are
> > > working to develop a community of practice around open civic data in
> > > Canada.
> >
> > change - of our - to - in our
> > >
>
> I was thinking of citizens not in terms of Canadian citizens but of
> the greek city/state citizens of our neighborhood, cities, provinces
> *and* then also canadian citizens.
>
> And I don't want to have something in our invitation to participate
> where people have to identify as canadian citizens because I'm aware
> that many of my co-workers don't identify as canadian citizens - so I
> wanted to leave it open for them to feel implicated.
>
> but if the way it's written sounds dumb, i would rather fix it then
> leave it sounding ugly just as a symbol. let me know.
sounds dumb, fix it.
>
> > > This is an idea whose time has come. Please join us in making it a reality!
> > >
> > > signed:
> > >
> > > Names
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2/13/06, Stephane Guidoin <
[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Basically, yup. Hopefully we can get some of the biggies to blog it,
> > > > > too. If someone wants to send it as a press release that would
> > > > > probably be okay as well - I'm not a PR guy so I don't know if there's
> > > > > any reason to try that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyone else have ideas?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > To me there's a difference between invitation and press release. Actual
> > > > participants could send invitations to people they know. But it could
> > > > be interesting to make a press release which is more an announcement
> > > > than an invitation.
> > > >
> > > > For example Online Rights Canada made a press release (I copied it there
> > > > after as a reminder). But obviously, we don't have the same target as
> > > > ORC : we want people to be participants and not spectators.
> > > >
> > > > The text Mike sent might not have the right tone to be added on a
> > > > website. But it's good when you make a invitation to someone you know.
> > > > To me, only the first sentence really needs to be changed to make
> > > > something more public and opened.
> > > >
> > > > Stef
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> > >
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