Wrong! Re: Canada Census on line

[Jason Loughead-2]

My turn.

On Thursday 04 May 2006 8:46 am, Grignon, Alain wrote:
> Richard,
>
> I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe the
> Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope of
> CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.

You are way off base here. What makes you think the browser debate doesn't
include open standards on the internet? Word processors and website code are
both simply bits of instructions. When I as a citizen want to fully
participate in government and gathering or submitting data who cares if I am
denied by code on the net or code residing on my computer? The point is I'm
being denied access, period. It's my RIGHT as a citizen of this country to
expect equal access. Read more information on the history of the internet,
TCP/IP, HTTP, the battle fought and won back then are at risk by laisse faire
people who let corporations control our access to information.

> That doesn't
> necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses. Anyone
> try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order to allow
> government web services to evolve. Being a public servant myself, I graple
> with these issues daily. There is a balance to be truck between making
> things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.
>

I'm sorry but this paragraph is woefully ignorant. If a browser can an
operating system that is compliant with http 4.1 transitional, and has a
TCP/IP stack it's nobody's business if I made my own operating system from
scratch. You're missing the entire point of standards, it's to ensure
compatability not to be an impediment to technological evolution. The
alternative is going back to using Archie (the University of Minnesota own
this software and has threatened to extract royalty fees from every user), or
Compuserve, or regressing back to unix days when many protocols were created
by each university. In fact this is where TCP/IP came from it's an
amalgamation of 32 different protocols. Previous to this you had to be a
hacker and know byte endianness, and script wrappers between
terminal "standards". This debate is entirely appropraite to open document
formats and access to information. For clarity (and in case you're using BeOS
or Unix, those great unknowns apparently) here is the mission from
CivicAccess's website.

Citizens for Open Access to Civic Information and Data (CivicAccess) is a
group of citizens which believes all levels of government should make civic
information and data accessible at no cost in open formats to their citizens.
We believe this is necessary to allow citizens to fully participate in the
democractic process of an "information society."
Objectives:
To encourage all levels of governments (county, municipal, provincial,
federal) to make civic data and information available to citizens without
restrictions, at no cost, and in useable open formats.
To encourage the development of citizen projects using civic data and
information
Making civic data and information freely available to citizens is important
because:
 Citizen participation in decision-making is fundamental to democracy
 Good decisions are made by informed citizens
 Quality civic data and information are fundamental to keeping citizens
informed in an "information society"
 Taxes have already paid for civic data and information; therefore these
should be made available at no cost to citizens
 Citizen projects using civic data will generate innovative solutions to
social, economic and environmental problems
 Citizen projects using civic data will allow citizens to creatively plan
their communities
 This is what a democracy looks like!

Jason

> Just my thoughts.
>
>
> Alain Grignon
> Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
> Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
> 601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
> Ottawa, Ont.
> Tel: [phone]
> http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: May 3, 2006 10:57
> PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Canada Census on line
>
> Hey all,
>
> Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I would
> pass it on.
>
> Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
> When I tried to get started I got this
>
> "Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this site
>
> The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this site.
>
> To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To download
> the required software. If you do not wish to download a new browser, you
> can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by mail in the envelope
> provided."
>
> So I called the help desk. I asked them why I get this messages and that I
> met all the requirements with one small exception. I was on Linux. I was
> told that Linux was not supported and I would have to use Windows or Mac to
> access the site. I asked him why this was and the help desk guy told me
> that as Linux was not all that popular so it was not supported and would
> not likely be supported anytime soon. I took some time to try and educate
> this gentleman about how the Internet should not have a specific operating
> system requirement but I don't think he was really listening or cared.
>
> Is there any one I can contact on this in the government or is there a
> anything the group can do to bring open standers argument to Census
> Canada's website? As this is census update time I am sure that there are
> other Linux users out there that are having issues. I am not pushing a
> Linux agenda here but I am pushing for open standards for the government of
> Canada's website.
>
> I know the group is just starting to get going but is this maybe a good
> starting point for some action?
>
> If not any help in pointing me in the direction of someone I can contact to
> complain would be much appreciated.
>
> +------------------------------------+
> Best regards,
> -Richard Houston
> -R.L.H.  Consulting
> -E-Mail  [hidden email]
> -WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
> -Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca

--
Software shouldn't be your struggle
--
Software shouldn't be your struggle

[Grignon, Alain]

I seem to be getting a lashing :). I stand corrected on 2 points, I seem to have missunderstood the scope of CivicAccess as I had been lead to it from a GeoSpatial blog RSS. I didn't realize it's scope was that of ALL information. Secondly, I duely appologyse if my "thoughts" seemed ignorant, they weren't intented to be as I hadn't caught the Open Standards part of Richard's initial discussion. As I've already mentionned to Richard, you're preaching to the converted here, I'm not the "Bad Guy". I was simply trying to show that developing things like an online Census form is a very complex process within government with many more considerations than simply adhering to open standards. Before you all fire back at me, I agree that it should be a top priority, and I don't work for Stats and have no idea how they came to their decision, but I know the for me, and my projects at NRCan, I do everything I can to adhere to and champion standards online. That being said, it has happened where, due to costs and labor requirements, adhering to standards just hasn't been feasible for the time being. That doesn't mean it won't be in the future and that it isn't in our plans but I think that what is important for Civic Access is to play an active role in generating demand for access to data and provide strong arguments to support it.

On a side note, since you've cleared up my assumption with regards to geospatial data, I would suggest that CivicAccess maybe consider creating sub groups to tackle different types of data such as GeoSpatial data as opposed to census data, in order to provide more focus on where it should make its push.

Again, really not trying to inspire anymosity, just voicing my thoughts without decention or prejudice.

Cheers,


Alain Grignon
Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
Ottawa, Ont.
Tel: [phone]
http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: May 4, 2006 1:23 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Wrong! Re: Canada Census on line

My turn.

On Thursday 04 May 2006 8:46 am, Grignon, Alain wrote:
> Richard,
>
> I may be way off base here, and please step in if I am but I believe
> the Linux debate/browser compatibility doesn't fall within the scope
> of CivicAccess. At least as I understand it.

You are way off base here. What makes you think the browser debate doesn't include open standards on the internet? Word processors and website code are both simply bits of instructions. When I as a citizen want to fully participate in government and gathering or submitting data who cares if I am denied by code on the net or code residing on my computer? The point is I'm being denied access, period. It's my RIGHT as a citizen of this country to expect equal access. Read more information on the history of the internet, TCP/IP, HTTP, the battle fought and won back then are at risk by laisse faire people who let corporations control our access to information.

> That doesn't
> necessarily mean it has to be accessible to all browser types/Oses.
> Anyone try using BeOS? Unix? Somewhere a line must be drawn in order
> to allow government web services to evolve. Being a public servant
> myself, I graple with these issues daily. There is a balance to be
> truck between making things accessible and keeping inline with current technologies.
>

I'm sorry but this paragraph is woefully ignorant. If a browser can an operating system that is compliant with http 4.1 transitional, and has a TCP/IP stack it's nobody's business if I made my own operating system from scratch. You're missing the entire point of standards, it's to ensure compatability not to be an impediment to technological evolution. The alternative is going back to using Archie (the University of Minnesota own this software and has threatened to extract royalty fees from every user), or Compuserve, or regressing back to unix days when many protocols were created by each university. In fact this is where TCP/IP came from it's an amalgamation of 32 different protocols. Previous to this you had to be a hacker and know byte endianness, and script wrappers between terminal "standards". This debate is entirely appropraite to open document formats and access to information. For clarity (and in case you're using BeOS or Unix, those great unknowns apparently) here is the mission from CivicAccess's website.

Citizens for Open Access to Civic Information and Data (CivicAccess) is a group of citizens which believes all levels of government should make civic information and data accessible at no cost in open formats to their citizens.
We believe this is necessary to allow citizens to fully participate in the democractic process of an "information society."
Objectives:
To encourage all levels of governments (county, municipal, provincial,
federal) to make civic data and information available to citizens without restrictions, at no cost, and in useable open formats.
To encourage the development of citizen projects using civic data and information Making civic data and information freely available to citizens is important
because:
 Citizen participation in decision-making is fundamental to democracy  Good decisions are made by informed citizens  Quality civic data and information are fundamental to keeping citizens informed in an "information society"
 Taxes have already paid for civic data and information; therefore these should be made available at no cost to citizens  Citizen projects using civic data will generate innovative solutions to social, economic and environmental problems  Citizen projects using civic data will allow citizens to creatively plan their communities  This is what a democracy looks like!

Jason

> Just my thoughts.
>
>
> Alain Grignon
> Landslide GIS Specialist / Spécialiste SIG en glissements de terrains
> Geological Survey of Canada / Commission géologique du Canada
> 601 Booth st. / 601 rue Booth
> Ottawa, Ont.
> Tel: [phone]
> http://landslides.nrcan.gc.ca/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: May 3, 2006
> 10:57 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Canada Census on line
>
> Hey all,
>
> Not sure if this falls into civicaccess's mandate but I figured I
> would pass it on.
>
> Today I tried to fill out my census info on-line (www.census2006.ca).
> When I tried to get started I got this
>
> "Your browser does not meet the minimum requirements to access this
> site
>
> The current version of browser you are using is not supported by this site.
>
> To download a supported version of browser, please refer to: To
> download the required software. If you do not wish to download a new
> browser, you can complete your paper questionnaire and return it by
> mail in the envelope provided."
>
> So I called the help desk. I asked them why I get this messages and
> that I met all the requirements with one small exception. I was on
> Linux. I was told that Linux was not supported and I would have to use
> Windows or Mac to access the site. I asked him why this was and the
> help desk guy told me that as Linux was not all that popular so it was
> not supported and would not likely be supported anytime soon. I took
> some time to try and educate this gentleman about how the Internet
> should not have a specific operating system requirement but I don't think he was really listening or cared.
>
> Is there any one I can contact on this in the government or is there a
> anything the group can do to bring open standers argument to Census
> Canada's website? As this is census update time I am sure that there
> are other Linux users out there that are having issues. I am not
> pushing a Linux agenda here but I am pushing for open standards for
> the government of Canada's website.
>
> I know the group is just starting to get going but is this maybe a
> good starting point for some action?
>
> If not any help in pointing me in the direction of someone I can
> contact to complain would be much appreciated.
>
> +------------------------------------+
> Best regards,
> -Richard Houston
> -R.L.H.  Consulting
> -E-Mail  [hidden email]
> -WWW     http://www.rlhc.net
> -Blog    http://www.rlhc.net/blog/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess
> .ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess
> .ca

--
Software shouldn't be your struggle

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca