Show your support for open gov. data at ibelieveinopen.ca
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On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Heather Morrison <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 23-Sep-08, at 11:57 AM, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > >> I believe folks are helping our Canadian democratic system be, well, >> democratic, by making it easier for citizens to find their MPs. >> >> The NIH public access mandate, if i am not mistaken, is primarily about >> journal articles and not necessarily the data that are used to create them >> unless they are included as a PDF appendix in the article. OA movements in >> general, if i am not mistaken, are about published material and i think >> there is a different batch of folks working on public data which include >> socio-demographic, digital maps, framework data and a host of scientific >> data from both the natural and social sciences. Both are complimentary >> movements and at some point it might be good to pool resources. > > Agreed on pooling resources - I am an OA advocate, totally supporting open > data. If open data goes ahead with public infringement, this is fine with > me, but - with very best wishes for open data - I'll have to take the > ibelieveincanada.ca button off my blog. > > The folks who are fighting for fair copyright in Canada could have the same > potential synergies, and the same issues here. > > chrs, h Hold on - do you mean ibelieveinopen.ca? They have not endorsed what I am doing. I offered to help them with software, but nothing has happened so far except a meeting. Even if I end up contributing code, it does not imply an endorsement on their part of my tactics. ibelieveinopen is lobbying, I'm practicing civil disobedience. I believe both approaches are worthwhile and can be complementary, if everyone plays their role properly. civicaccess is a meeting ground. We don't all have to agree our support each other. I do hope however that we'll avoid hampering each other's efforts. To those unfamiliar with civil disobedience and how our roles can be complementary, I highly recommend the book "Doing Democracy": http://tinyurl.com/3hasd2 Cheers, d. |
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In reply to this post by Tracey P. Lauriault
Le Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:54:11 -0400,
"Tracey P. Lauriault" <[hidden email]> a écrit : > Hey Heather! > > ibelieveincanada.ca initiative is partially inspired by civicaccess.ca and > many other initiatives primarily in the US, so keep the button! The person > who developed the initiative is a list member of civicaccess.ca but it is > not a civicaccess.ca led project. Why is http://ibelieveincanada.ca/ showing its head in this discussion? Aside from encouraging people to show what they believe in (Openness), they're also building a database of postal codes to district relationships without infringing any copyright and they're going to share this data. Daniel's project is also something I understand fully, having done the same thing last year. Finally, if you have 3000$ you can have unlimited access to the http://www.makethechange.ca/ web service to provide the same postal code to district relationship. Of course, we (on this list, I would assume) all want this data (and so much more!) to be equally accessible. At least this multiprong approach has the advantage of putting pressure on many sides of the equation. P.S.: I'll be adding links (or data, when it becomes available) from http://cancan.waglo.com/ to http://ibelieveincanada.ca/ and as many sources as I can find in the short term. Let me know if you have any suggestions. -- Robin Millette http://rym.waglo.com/ http://identi.ca/millette |
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Um, it's ibelieveinopen.ca. Open. :-)
And yes, I will be sharing the postal codes that the site legally collects. Although, as people have pointed out, it will inevitably be an incomplete set. Goodness, I don't think this list has seen so much traffic in ages... Jennifer --- On Tue, 9/23/08, Robin Millette <[hidden email]> wrote: > From: Robin Millette <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Guerilla Open Access > To: [hidden email] > Received: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 4:09 PM > Le Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:54:11 -0400, > "Tracey P. Lauriault" <[hidden email]> > a écrit : > > > Hey Heather! > > > > ibelieveincanada.ca initiative is partially inspired > by civicaccess.ca and > > many other initiatives primarily in the US, so keep > the button! The person > > who developed the initiative is a list member of > civicaccess.ca but it is > > not a civicaccess.ca led project. > > Why is http://ibelieveincanada.ca/ showing its head in this > discussion? Aside from encouraging people to show what they > believe in (Openness), they're also building a database > of postal codes to district relationships without infringing > any copyright and they're going to share this data. > > Daniel's project is also something I understand fully, > having done the same thing last year. > > Finally, if you have 3000$ you can have unlimited access to > the http://www.makethechange.ca/ web service to provide the > same postal code to district relationship. > > Of course, we (on this list, I would assume) all want this > data (and so much more!) to be equally accessible. At least > this multiprong approach has the advantage of putting > pressure on many sides of the equation. > > P.S.: I'll be adding links (or data, when it becomes > available) from http://cancan.waglo.com/ to > http://ibelieveincanada.ca/ and as many sources as I can > find in the short term. Let me know if you have any > suggestions. > > -- > Robin Millette > http://rym.waglo.com/ > http://identi.ca/millette > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ |
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Le Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:26:24 -0700 (PDT),
Jennifer Bell <[hidden email]> a écrit : > Um, it's ibelieveinopen.ca. Open. :-) Doh! How did that get in there? At least I'm consistent :P Je suis aussi très content d'être québécois :) -- Robin |
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In reply to this post by Jennifer Bell
The list gets busy during election periods Jenn and other campaigns.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Jennifer Bell <[hidden email]> wrote: Um, it's ibelieveinopen.ca. Open. :-) -- Tracey P. Lauriault 613-234-2805 https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault |
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In reply to this post by Heather Morrison
Heather Morrison wrote: > As an illustration of why the legislation is needed. A bad and totally > inappropriate example, but might convince a busy legislator who doesn't > really have time to read and think about the details of every piece of > legislation that comes their way. I think this issue is entirely different than the US OA issue, especially since the opposition is to an actual policy. There is no visible anti-lobby in the case of releasing the PCFRF data. If there is an "anti" group within government, for whatever their reason is, they have not come forward. There is existing "cost recovery" policy that is being (IMHO mis-)interpreted to mean they have to charge for this data, and the bureaucrats claim their hands are tied. This is an issue that nobody inside of government or parliament who is in a position to actually make a better decision is even aware that the problem exists. There can't be a successful lawsuit for infringing this crown copyright. Sure, there is a $value attached to this "product" offered by Statistics Canada, but a lawsuit would only further expose the stupidity of charging for this data and putting a draconian proprietary license on it in the first place. I guess I also have a basic feeling about the law. Either you obey the law or you publicly break it because you disagree with it and want it changed. Breaking the law and hiding the fact that you are breaking it is just disobedience, not civil disobedience. If we then publicly call deliberately breaking the law in secret "Guerilla Open Access" then we will be giving the OA movement a bad name. IE: I think it we want to ensure the OA movement retains a good name we have only two options: obey current crown copyright and do not try to gain access to this data illegally, or if we infringe copyright we do so publicly. That's my 2c anyway, and will now return everyone to their regularly scheduled program ;-) -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/> Please help us tell the Canadian Parliament to protect our property rights as owners of Information Technology. Sign the petition! http://www.digital-copyright.ca/petition/ict/ "The government, lobbied by legacy copyright holders and hardware manufacturers, can pry my camcorder, computer, home theatre, or portable media player from my cold dead hands!" |
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In reply to this post by Heather Morrison
Heather Morrison wrote:
> The folks who are fighting for fair copyright in Canada could have the > same potential synergies, and the same issues here. Abolishing crown copyright tends to be one of those "Fair Copyright" issues, so we are talking about infringing a form of copyright that we don't believe should even exist. Abolishing Crown Copyright is at a level far beyond the CivicAccess requests which is that government created data which Canadians have already paid for (sometimes multiple times) should at least be made freely available to Canadians. What the CivicAccess folks are asking for is much easier than what the OA folks are asking for, given with OA we are saying that the results of publicly funded research done by third parties be made available, while with CivicAccess we are saying the stuff which our government created themselves should be available. The public sector as a copyright holder is a very different situation than any other sector being a copyright holder. (Guess I didn't bow out of this interesting conversation ;-) -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/> Please help us tell the Canadian Parliament to protect our property rights as owners of Information Technology. Sign the petition! http://www.digital-copyright.ca/petition/ict/ "The government, lobbied by legacy copyright holders and hardware manufacturers, can pry my camcorder, computer, home theatre, or portable media player from my cold dead hands!" |
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Good points all, everyone.
There are times when I think civil disobedience is the best (or only) strategy for change. This is not one of these times. Open access to scholarly literature, government data, and fair copyright are completely different things. Does everyone think, though, that the average citizen (and policitian) fully understands the differences? As an OA advocate and librarian working in public policy advocacy, I'm sceptical. I find it necessary to repeat definitions, often, and also that most people find copyright law is very confusing. Even lawyers who specialize in copyright think this. On reflection, I would agree that it is better to either obey the law, or to infringe openly as a matter of civil disobedience. If the latter course is pursued, I would advise anyone in the open access or fair copyright movements (or even open data) to steer clear. I'm assuming, too, that those who infringe will happily pay their own legal expenses should they be sued. best, Heatherr Morrison On 23-Sep-08, at 3:57 PM, Russell McOrmond wrote: > Heather Morrison wrote: >> The folks who are fighting for fair copyright in Canada could have >> the same potential synergies, and the same issues here. > > Abolishing crown copyright tends to be one of those "Fair > Copyright" issues, so we are talking about infringing a form of > copyright that we don't believe should even exist. > > Abolishing Crown Copyright is at a level far beyond the > CivicAccess requests which is that government created data which > Canadians have already paid for (sometimes multiple times) should > at least be made freely available to Canadians. > > What the CivicAccess folks are asking for is much easier than > what the OA folks are asking for, given with OA we are saying that > the results of publicly funded research done by third parties be > made available, while with CivicAccess we are saying the stuff > which our government created themselves should be available. > > The public sector as a copyright holder is a very different > situation than any other sector being a copyright holder. > > > (Guess I didn't bow out of this interesting conversation ;-) > -- > Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/> > Please help us tell the Canadian Parliament to protect our property > rights as owners of Information Technology. Sign the petition! > http://www.digital-copyright.ca/petition/ict/ > > "The government, lobbied by legacy copyright holders and hardware > manufacturers, can pry my camcorder, computer, home theatre, or > portable media player from my cold dead hands!" > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: Show your support for open gov. data at ibelieveinopen.ca
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In reply to this post by Robin Millette
Robin Millette wrote:
> Are you using > http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=ele&document=index&dir=40ge/can&lang=e&textonly=false > for your list of candidates? I know -- this is such a cool listing, and easy to import into a database. http://www.digital-copyright.ca/election2008/candidates The hard part is always getting the email addresses and websites, which I wish Elections Canada would collect as well. -- Russell McOrmond, Internet Consultant: <http://www.flora.ca/> Please help us tell the Canadian Parliament to protect our property rights as owners of Information Technology. Sign the petition! http://www.digital-copyright.ca/petition/ict/ "The government, lobbied by legacy copyright holders and hardware manufacturers, can pry my camcorder, computer, home theatre, or portable media player from my cold dead hands!" |
CSV of Canada candidates for 2008 elections
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Le Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:52:08 -0400,
Russell McOrmond <[hidden email]> a écrit : > Robin Millette wrote: > > Are you using > > http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=ele&document=index&dir=40ge/can&lang=e&textonly=false > > for your list of candidates? > > I know -- this is such a cool listing, and easy to import into a > database. Except it's not CSV as advertised but in a proprietary and binary format :( Which is why I convert it daily until the 25th when the final version will be up: http://rym.waglo.com/wordpress/2008/09/14/candidats-2008-des-elections-canadiennes/ or more directly http://cancan.waglo.com/candidates-canada-2008.csv Please tell me I'm not infringing ;) -- Robin |
you're not infringing! Re: CSV of Canada candidates for 2008 elections
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On 23-Sep-08, at 8:02 PM, Robin Millette wrote: > Le Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:52:08 -0400, > Russell McOrmond <[hidden email]> a écrit : > >> Robin Millette wrote: >>> Are you using >>> http://www.elections.ca/content.asp? >>> section=ele&document=index&dir=40ge/can&lang=e&textonly=false >>> for your list of candidates? >> >> I know -- this is such a cool listing, and easy to import into a >> database. > > Except it's not CSV as advertised but in a proprietary and binary > format :( > > Which is why I convert it daily until the 25th when the final > version will be up: > http://rym.waglo.com/wordpress/2008/09/14/candidats-2008-des- > elections-canadiennes/ > or more directly http://cancan.waglo.com/candidates-canada-2008.csv > > Please tell me I'm not infringing ;) You are not infringing! The website specifically says that you can alter the format. best, Heather > > -- > Robin > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
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Parliament Hill Reporter David Akin asks "Are politicians committed to
open government?" <http://davidakin.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2008/9/23/3897561.html> -- Catherine Roy http://www.catherine-roy.net |
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In reply to this post by Jennifer Bell
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> > Goodness, I don't think this list has seen so much traffic in ages... mention the words "postal codes" and "electoral districts" in the same paragraph, and we all go frothy at the mouth... |
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