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Secrecy in Can. Govt

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michael gurstein

Secrecy in Can. Govt

From: nicole s

Date: December 22, 2012 6:58:51 AM EST

To: Steve Kurtz <[hidden email]>, keith wilde <[hidden email]>

Subject: O Canada

Reply-To: nicole s

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark

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Immanuel Giulea

Re: Secrecy in Can. Govt

Very disappointed by the demagogy and liberal bias of the Toronto Star amateur journalists.

How about this for a good quote to end the year :

"Our Government is the most transparent government in Canadian history," said Minister Clement. "There has never been a time when Canadians have had as much access to government information."

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do;jsessionid=ac1b105330d77490c4395ec948dc9de8cb86364df7b5.e38RbhaLb3qNe3yKa40?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=712849&crtr.tp1D=1

Merry Christmas !!

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 10:24 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: nicole s

Date: December 22, 2012 6:58:51 AM EST

To: Steve Kurtz <[hidden email]>, keith wilde <[hidden email]>

Subject: O Canada
Reply-To: nicole s

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark

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James McKinney-2

Re: Secrecy in Can. Govt

I can hardly see evidence of demagogy and liberal bias in the piece linked to by Michael Gurstein: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark

It's largely about access to information requests to municipalities (which rarely have parties in Ontario) and the province of Ontario (which was a liberal government for most if not all stories discussed).

As for demagogy, the article presents a reasonable argument about the problems with access to information in Canada, with more appeals to facts about delays, etc. than to any emotional content.

On 2012-12-22, at 10:31 AM, Immanuel Giulea wrote:

Very disappointed by the demagogy and liberal bias of the Toronto Star amateur journalists.

How about this for a good quote to end the year :

"Our Government is the most transparent government in Canadian history," said Minister Clement. "There has never been a time when Canadians have had as much access to government information."

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do;jsessionid=ac1b105330d77490c4395ec948dc9de8cb86364df7b5.e38RbhaLb3qNe3yKa40?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=712849&crtr.tp1D=1

Merry Christmas !!

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 10:24 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: nicole s

Date: December 22, 2012 6:58:51 AM EST

To: Steve Kurtz <[hidden email]>, keith wilde <[hidden email]>

Subject: O Canada
Reply-To: nicole s

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark

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michael gurstein

Re: Secrecy in Can. Govt

In reply to this post by Immanuel Giulea

Min. Clement…I've done a really great job, just ask me…

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Immanuel Giulea
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 7:31 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Secrecy in Can. Govt

Very disappointed by the demagogy and liberal bias of the Toronto Star amateur journalists.

How about this for a good quote to end the year :

"Our Government is the most transparent government in Canadian history," said Minister Clement. "There has never been a time when Canadians have had as much access to government information."

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do;jsessionid=ac1b105330d77490c4395ec948dc9de8cb86364df7b5.e38RbhaLb3qNe3yKa40?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=712849&crtr.tp1D=1

Merry Christmas !!

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 10:24 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: nicole s

Date: December 22, 2012 6:58:51 AM EST

To: Steve Kurtz <[hidden email]>, keith wilde <[hidden email]>

Subject: O Canada

Reply-To: nicole s

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark

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Immanuel Giulea

Re: Secrecy in Can. Govt

In reply to this post by James McKinney-2

If the Toronto Star story is about "largely about access to information requests to municipalities (which rarely have parties in Ontario) and the province of Ontario (which was a liberal government for most if not all stories discussed)." then the subject line of the email shouldn't be "Secrecy in Can. Govt".

Very misleading !!

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 11:13 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

I can hardly see evidence of demagogy and liberal bias in the piece linked to by Michael Gurstein: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark

It's largely about access to information requests to municipalities (which rarely have parties in Ontario) and the province of Ontario (which was a liberal government for most if not all stories discussed).

As for demagogy, the article presents a reasonable argument about the problems with access to information in Canada, with more appeals to facts about delays, etc. than to any emotional content.

On 2012-12-22, at 10:31 AM, Immanuel Giulea wrote:

Very disappointed by the demagogy and liberal bias of the Toronto Star amateur journalists.

How about this for a good quote to end the year :

"Our Government is the most transparent government in Canadian history," said Minister Clement. "There has never been a time when Canadians have had as much access to government information."

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do;jsessionid=ac1b105330d77490c4395ec948dc9de8cb86364df7b5.e38RbhaLb3qNe3yKa40?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=712849&crtr.tp1D=1

Merry Christmas !!

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 10:24 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: nicole s

Date: December 22, 2012 6:58:51 AM EST

To: Steve Kurtz <[hidden email]>, keith wilde <[hidden email]>

Subject: O Canada
Reply-To: nicole s

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark

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James McKinney-2

Re: Secrecy in Can. Govt

That's just the subject line of this email thread...

The Toronto Star article's title is "Culture of secrecy keeping Canadians in the dark" and the short title is "Culture of secrecy in Canada"

Let's please try to keep emails to this mailing list informed and reasonable and not nit-pick subject lines, which is not the point.

On 2012-12-22, at 11:34 AM, Immanuel Giulea wrote:

> If the Toronto Star story is about "largely about access to information requests to municipalities (which rarely have parties in Ontario) and the province of Ontario (which was a liberal government for most if not all stories discussed)." then the subject line of the email shouldn't be "Secrecy in Can. Govt".
>
> Very misleading !!
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 11:13 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I can hardly see evidence of demagogy and liberal bias in the piece linked to by Michael Gurstein: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark
>
> It's largely about access to information requests to municipalities (which rarely have parties in Ontario) and the province of Ontario (which was a liberal government for most if not all stories discussed).
>
> As for demagogy, the article presents a reasonable argument about the problems with access to information in Canada, with more appeals to facts about delays, etc. than to any emotional content.
>
>
>
> On 2012-12-22, at 10:31 AM, Immanuel Giulea wrote:
>
>> Very disappointed by the demagogy and liberal bias of the Toronto Star amateur journalists.
>>
>> How about this for a good quote to end the year :
>>
>> "Our Government is the most transparent government in Canadian history," said Minister Clement. "There has never been a time when Canadians have had as much access to government information."
>> http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do;jsessionid=ac1b105330d77490c4395ec948dc9de8cb86364df7b5.e38RbhaLb3qNe3yKa40?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=712849&crtr.tp1D=1
>>
>>
>> Merry Christmas !!
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 10:24 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> From: nicole s
>>
>> Date: December 22, 2012 6:58:51 AM EST
>>
>> To: Steve Kurtz <[hidden email]>, keith wilde <[hidden email]>
>>
>> Subject: O Canada
>>
>> Reply-To: nicole s
>>
>> http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
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Immanuel Giulea

Re: Secrecy in Can. Govt

I will agree with you when you agree that the province of Ontario does not equal the Canadian govt.

The Can govt has much improved in ways of transparency since 2007, so let's acknowledge that.

People from Ontario need to deal with their own bad government without blaming the feds.

Cheers from Montreal, QC

Immanuel

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 11:39 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's just the subject line of this email thread...

The Toronto Star article's title is "Culture of secrecy keeping Canadians in the dark" and the short title is "Culture of secrecy in Canada"

Let's please try to keep emails to this mailing list informed and reasonable and not nit-pick subject lines, which is not the point.

On 2012-12-22, at 11:34 AM, Immanuel Giulea wrote:

> If the Toronto Star story is about "largely about access to information requests to municipalities (which rarely have parties in Ontario) and the province of Ontario (which was a liberal government for most if not all stories discussed)." then the subject line of the email shouldn't be "Secrecy in Can. Govt".
>
> Very misleading !!
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 11:13 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I can hardly see evidence of demagogy and liberal bias in the piece linked to by Michael Gurstein: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark
>
> It's largely about access to information requests to municipalities (which rarely have parties in Ontario) and the province of Ontario (which was a liberal government for most if not all stories discussed).
>
> As for demagogy, the article presents a reasonable argument about the problems with access to information in Canada, with more appeals to facts about delays, etc. than to any emotional content.
>
>
>
> On 2012-12-22, at 10:31 AM, Immanuel Giulea wrote:
>
>> Very disappointed by the demagogy and liberal bias of the Toronto Star amateur journalists.
>>
>> How about this for a good quote to end the year :
>>
>> "Our Government is the most transparent government in Canadian history," said Minister Clement. "There has never been a time when Canadians have had as much access to government information."
>> http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do;jsessionid=ac1b105330d77490c4395ec948dc9de8cb86364df7b5.e38RbhaLb3qNe3yKa40?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=712849&crtr.tp1D=1
>>
>>
>> Merry Christmas !!
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 10:24 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> From: nicole s
>>
>> Date: December 22, 2012 6:58:51 AM EST
>>
>> To: Steve Kurtz <[hidden email]>, keith wilde <[hidden email]>
>>
>> Subject: O Canada
>>
>> Reply-To: nicole s
>>
>> http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1305751--culture-of-secrecy-keeping-canadians-in-the-dark
>>
>>
>>
>> __._,_.___
>>
>> Reply via web post
>>
>> Reply to sender
>>
>> Reply to group
>>
>> Start a New Topic
>>
>> Messages in this topic (1)
>>
>> RECENT ACTIVITY:
>>
>> Visit Your Group
>>
>>
>>
>> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>> __,_._,___
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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David Akin

Re: Secrecy in Can. Govt

In reply to this post by Immanuel Giulea

Oh, good heavens, Immanuel --

I'm the Parliamentary Bureau Chief for Sun Media, a heavy ATI user, and a big Open Government/Open Data supporter.

While I have personally encouraged Minister Clement in his Open Government/Open Data initiatives, it is demonstrably false for him to make the claims he made in that press release:

- First government *ever* to have been found by the Speaker of the House of Commons to be in contempt of Parliament for failing to provide information Parliament requested. http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2011/03/10/17566976.html

- Political aides under investigation by the RCMP for meddling in Access to Information requests: http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/10/04/15579301.html

- Université de Laval political scientist Anne Gingras: 30 years of ATI: And it’s getting worse (http://blogs.canoe.ca/davidakin/politics/30-years-of-ati-and-its-getting-worse/)

- From one of several columns I've written about our crumbling ATI system: "Only in the odd, upside-down, un-reality world in which government bureaucrats live could the idea flourish that they are doing a better job by not doing their job at all. But that is indeed the case at the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT) where officials charged with responding to requests made under the federal Access to Information (ATI) Act boasted that they had taken steps “to improve overall compliance” and “increase efficiency” by convincing dozens of Canadians to drop their requests for information. [Read the rest at: http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/21/common-sense-from-bureaucrats ]

There's four -- but I could go on and on and on and on ...

On 2012-12-22, at 10:31 AM, Immanuel Giulea <[hidden email]> wrote:

Very disappointed by the demagogy and liberal bias of the Toronto Star amateur journalists.

How about this for a good quote to end the year :

"Our Government is the most transparent government in Canadian history," said Minister Clement. "There has never been a time when Canadians have had as much access to government information."

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do;jsessionid=ac1b105330d77490c4395ec948dc9de8cb86364df7b5.e38RbhaLb3qNe3yKa40?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=712849&crtr.tp1D=1

Merry Christmas !!

David Akin

Ottawa, Ontario

----------------------

www.davidakin.com

Glen Newton

Re: Secrecy in Can. Govt

+10

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:33 PM, David Akin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Oh, good heavens, Immanuel --
>
> I'm the Parliamentary Bureau Chief for Sun Media, a heavy ATI user, and a
> big Open Government/Open Data supporter.
>
> While I have personally encouraged Minister Clement in his Open
> Government/Open Data initiatives, it is demonstrably false for him to make
> the claims he made in that press release:
>
> - First government *ever* to have been found by the Speaker of the House of
> Commons to be in contempt of Parliament for failing to provide information
> Parliament requested.
> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2011/03/10/17566976.html
> - Political aides under investigation by the RCMP for meddling in Access to
> Information requests:
> http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/10/04/15579301.html
> - Université de Laval political scientist Anne Gingras: 30 years of ATI: And
> it’s getting worse
> (http://blogs.canoe.ca/davidakin/politics/30-years-of-ati-and-its-getting-worse/)
> - From one of several columns I've written about our crumbling ATI system:
> "Only in the odd, upside-down, un-reality world in which government
> bureaucrats live could the idea flourish that they are doing a better job by
> not doing their job at all. But that is indeed the case at the Department of
> Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT) where officials charged with
> responding to requests made under the federal Access to Information (ATI)
> Act boasted that they had taken steps “to improve overall compliance” and
> “increase efficiency” by convincing dozens of Canadians to drop their
> requests for information. [Read the rest at:
> http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/21/common-sense-from-bureaucrats ]
>
> There's four -- but I could go on and on and on and on ...
>
>
> On 2012-12-22, at 10:31 AM, Immanuel Giulea <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Very disappointed by the demagogy and liberal bias of the Toronto Star
> amateur journalists.
>
> How about this for a good quote to end the year :
>
>> "Our Government is the most transparent government in Canadian history,"
>> said Minister Clement. "There has never been a time when Canadians have had
>> as much access to government information."
>
> http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do;jsessionid=ac1b105330d77490c4395ec948dc9de8cb86364df7b5.e38RbhaLb3qNe3yKa40?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=712849&crtr.tp1D=1
>
>
> Merry Christmas !!
>
>
>
> David Akin
> Ottawa, Ontario
> ----------------------
> www.davidakin.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
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Jonathan Brun-2

Re: Secrecy in Can. Govt

don't feed the trolls!

QuebecOuvert.org - MontrealOuvert.net
jonathanbrun.com - @jonathanbrun

On 2012-12-22, at 3:22 PM, Glen Newton wrote:

+10

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:33 PM, David Akin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oh, good heavens, Immanuel --

I'm the Parliamentary Bureau Chief for Sun Media, a heavy ATI user, and a
big Open Government/Open Data supporter.

While I have personally encouraged Minister Clement in his Open
Government/Open Data initiatives, it is demonstrably false for him to make
the claims he made in that press release:

- First government *ever* to have been found by the Speaker of the House of
Commons to be in contempt of Parliament for failing to provide information
Parliament requested.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2011/03/10/17566976.html
- Political aides under investigation by the RCMP for meddling in Access to
Information requests:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/10/04/15579301.html
- Université de Laval political scientist Anne Gingras: 30 years of ATI: And
it’s getting worse
(http://blogs.canoe.ca/davidakin/politics/30-years-of-ati-and-its-getting-worse/)
- From one of several columns I've written about our crumbling ATI system:
"Only in the odd, upside-down, un-reality world in which government
bureaucrats live could the idea flourish that they are doing a better job by
not doing their job at all. But that is indeed the case at the Department of
Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT) where officials charged with
responding to requests made under the federal Access to Information (ATI)
Act boasted that they had taken steps “to improve overall compliance” and
“increase efficiency” by convincing dozens of Canadians to drop their
requests for information. [Read the rest at:
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/21/common-sense-from-bureaucrats ]

There's four -- but I could go on and on and on and on ...

On 2012-12-22, at 10:31 AM, Immanuel Giulea <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Very disappointed by the demagogy and liberal bias of the Toronto Star
amateur journalists.

How about this for a good quote to end the year :

"Our Government is the most transparent government in Canadian history,"
said Minister Clement. "There has never been a time when Canadians have had
as much access to government information."

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do;jsessionid=ac1b105330d77490c4395ec948dc9de8cb86364df7b5.e38RbhaLb3qNe3yKa40?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=712849&crtr.tp1D=1

Merry Christmas !!

David Akin
Ottawa, Ontario
----------------------
www.davidakin.com

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