Re: CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 40
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Re: CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 40
 
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Marcel:
Thanks for this. I've been away from this world for some time, so am not up to date. As one-time chairman of an ITAC committee seeking wider access to government information, I remember some pretty rancourous encounters between users and government "custodians" around the GPS isssue. But your synopsis provides more clarity. And I'm sure that things have progressed. But in this day and age, when individuals have the power to develop powerful web tools, why should negotiation and persuasion even be necessary? Obvious illustrations of the benefits of data liberation abound. An individual who undertakes a project to use GPS and fare data to improve travel times may, on his own time and expense, come up with something of immense benefit to the world. If he's required to negotiate for access to the data, the project won't happen. And as for having to demonstrate potential uses to gain access, what about serendipity? Isn't that a major factor in innovation? So I continue to believe that the simple elimination of crown copyright, a vestigal law if there ever was one, would be a powerful stimulus to innovation. While it might not eliminate all the barriers to data access (since it doesn't affect the power to establish licensing conditions) it would send a signal to everyone (the government custodians included) that protection of data from "abuse" is not a legitimate mandate. Their role ought to be the opposite; to make the data available and encourage innovation. The Klinkenberg article eloquently makes this point. I hope CivicAccess will be one of the groups working to bring an end to crown copyright. Bob Gibson Message: 2 Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 04:52:32 -0400 From: Marcel Fortin <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Time Travel Maps To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> Message-ID: <[hidden email]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Bob, Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the restriction on GPS accuracy due to American encryption or degradation of satellite signals for security reasons? The result being inaccurate GPS readings by several hundreds of feet. Bill Clinton overturned this in May of 2000. To answer your question, absolutely we missed a great opportunity in Canada. The Canadian government was a leader in GIS and with its restrictive policies and price gouges they crippled any kind of business or research innovation that could have occurred in the geospatial industry in Canada. It's hard to do market, population analysis, or draw a map for that matter without data, or without being able to afford data. For a great article on the history of the restrictive data policies of Canadian Governments and the severity of their impact over the years, see Klinkenberg, Brian. 2003. The true cost of spatial data in Canada. The Canadian Geographer/Le G?ographe canadien 47 (1):37-49. As for failure, I wouldn't qualify it as that. We have to realize that the American model is not the one used around the world. Other countries have similar policies to ours as well. Some countries don't even have data to restrict. As well, the Canadian Federal Government has made huge strides in making data available following the creation of the Canadian Geospatial Data Infrastructure (CGDI) and Geoconnections in the late 1990's. One simply has to look at the huge amounts of data available on geobase.ca and geogratis.ca (yes, low resolution data for the most part, but it's a really good start with great new, better resolution additions recently such as the Digital Elevation Model product at 30 metre resolution) Many provincial and some municipal governments are also allowing downloads of their geospatial data for free. Manitoba has most of its current data online for instance, Ontario is also making several of its core topographic layers available for a very small fee. The National Capital Commission allows downloads of their geospatial data if I'm not mistaken. I could go on and on. So, a failure? I don't think so. I think we have to build on some of these successes and not try and compare ourselves to the U.S. too much. The federal government is not oblivious to the fact that data are mostly free in the US. In many cases federal and provincial hands are tied because of Crown Copyright and licensing policy, or they think their hands are tied See Werschler's "Dissemination of Government Geographic Data in Canada : Guide to Best Practices" at http://cgdi-dev.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide_to_ Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf Our data cultures are different and we can't change that overnight. The Association of Canadian Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) along with the Canadian Association of Public Data Users (CAPDU) have worked hard at negotiating data deals over the years. What we in the ACMLA have done is demonstrate the need for their data, how they can be used (something they don't always know), and how we intend to use them. The most effective argument we often have, however, is the ability to demonstrate to them a similar deal with another organization (this also works with industry). The strategy is often used at the provincial and local level. I realize again that these are academic deals but it does demonstrate the power of negotiation and communication and the usefulness of building on past successes. Marcel |
Re: CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 40 - Bob & Marcel
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Thanks Bob & Marcel;
You have been providing some excellent information here and obviously have some great insight into these issues. I have loaded links to the docs you reference, and also the associations you referred to on the wiki. I also added you as participants in the wiki and there is page for you to add your bio if you so wish to do so. Just go to the participants page on the wiki (civicaccess.ca). See comments in line. > Marcel: > > Thanks for this. I've been away from this world for some time, so am not up > to date. As one-time chairman of an ITAC committee seeking wider access to > government information, I remember some pretty rancourous encounters between > users and government "custodians" around the GPS isssue. But your synopsis > provides more clarity. > What is ITAC? Can you expand the acronym & provide a url! and/Or even better post it here - http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Organizations/Organismes > And I'm sure that things have progressed. But in this day and age, when > individuals have the power to develop powerful web tools, why should > negotiation and persuasion even be necessary? Obvious illustrations of the > benefits of data liberation abound. An individual who undertakes a project > to use GPS and fare data to improve travel times may, on his own time and > expense, come up with something of immense benefit to the world. If he's > required to negotiate for access to the data, the project won't happen. And > as for having to demonstrate potential uses to gain access, what about > serendipity? Isn't that a major factor in innovation? > > So I continue to believe that the simple elimination of crown copyright, a > vestigal law if there ever was one, would be a powerful stimulus to > innovation. While it might not eliminate all the barriers to data access > (since it doesn't affect the power to establish licensing conditions) it > would send a signal to everyone (the government custodians included) that > protection of data from "abuse" is not a legitimate mandate. Their role > ought to be the opposite; to make the data available and encourage > innovation. The Klinkenberg article eloquently makes this point. > http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Politiques, formatting is a bit ugly, we'll jazz it up later. > I hope CivicAccess will be one of the groups working to bring an end to > crown copyright. > your help here would be much appreciated. Perhaps we could get some good text and references we can use for out CensusAction. Any ideas would be most wonderful - http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/CensusAction > Bob Gibson > > > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 04:52:32 -0400 > From: Marcel Fortin <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Time Travel Maps > To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> > Message-ID: <[hidden email]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Bob, > Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the restriction on GPS accuracy due to > American encryption or degradation of satellite signals for security > reasons? The result being inaccurate GPS readings by several hundreds of > feet. Bill Clinton overturned this in May of 2000. > > To answer your question, absolutely we missed a great opportunity in Canada. > The Canadian government was a leader in GIS and with its restrictive > policies and price gouges they crippled any kind of business or research > innovation that could have occurred in the geospatial industry in Canada. > It's hard to do market, population analysis, or draw a map for that matter > without data, or without being able to afford data. For a great article on > the history of the restrictive data policies of Canadian Governments and the > severity of their impact over the years, see Klinkenberg, Brian. 2003. The > true cost of spatial data in Canada. The Canadian Geographer/Le G?ographe > canadien 47 (1):37-49. > http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Politiques - under the heading of crown copyright > As for failure, I wouldn't qualify it as that. We have to realize that the > American model is not the one used around the world. Other countries have > similar policies to ours as well. Some countries don't even have data to > restrict. As well, the Canadian Federal Government has made huge strides in > making data available following the creation of the Canadian Geospatial Data > Infrastructure (CGDI) and Geoconnections in the late 1990's. One simply has > to look at the huge amounts of data available on geobase.ca and geogratis.ca > (yes, low resolution data for the most part, but it's a really good start > with great new, better resolution additions recently such as the Digital > Elevation Model product at 30 metre > resolution) Many provincial and some municipal governments are also allowing > downloads of their geospatial data for free. Manitoba has most of its > current data online for instance, Ontario is also making several of its core > topographic layers available for a very small fee. The National Capital > Commission allows downloads of their geospatial data if I'm not mistaken. I > could go on and on. > I partially agree with you, we do have much to celebrate, however, after having spent thousands of dollars on data to do some quality of life indicator work at the scale of the city, and trying to do some demographic analysis of my neigbhourhood and some school catchment areas, i feel we have a long way to go for the average citizen - not the specialist - getting easy and free/no cost access to some useful data. Having said that, Marcel, would you be so kind as to look at our resources page and see if there are additional resources we can add there? You could just post them to the list if you like or put em up on the wiki. That would be really great! http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Resources > So, a failure? I don't think so. I think we have to build on some of these > successes and not try and compare ourselves to the U.S. too much. > The federal government is not oblivious to the fact that data are mostly > free in the US. In many cases federal and provincial hands are tied because > of Crown Copyright and licensing policy, or they think their hands are tied > See Werschler's "Dissemination of Government Geographic Data in Canada : > Guide to Best Practices" at > http://cgdi-dev.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide_to_ > Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf > Our data cultures are different and we can't change that overnight. > http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Politiques > The Association of Canadian Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) along with > the Canadian Association of Public Data Users (CAPDU) have worked hard at > negotiating data deals over the years. I've added the orgs here - http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Organizations/Organismes if you have some good refs, fire em over and I will get em listed! > What we in the ACMLA have done is > demonstrate the need for their data, how they can be used (something they > don't always know), and how we intend to use them. The most effective > argument we often have, however, is the ability to demonstrate to them a > similar deal with another organization (this also works with industry). The > strategy is often used at the provincial and local level. I realize again > that these are academic deals but it does demonstrate the power of > negotiation and communication and the usefulness of building on past > successes. > > Marcel > > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca > > |
Re: CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 40 - Bob & Marcel
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Thanks Tracey,
You're right, we definetly do have a long way to go in the public realm, but, on the academic side, we have also come a long long way. When I started at the U of T in 1999, we had access to maybe 2 or 3 Canadian geospatial datasets taking up roughly about 1 gig of space mostly taken up by one orthophoto set). In 2006, I have access to probably over 100 Canadian geospatial datasets taking up over a terabyte of space, without counting the free Canadian data on the web. Again, most of this is of course through academic licensing, but I think things will progress for the general public as well. That's my hope at least. Maybe I'm too optimistic? I imagine everyone else on this listserv has hope considering the existance of the civicaccess group and listserv. I will try and add links and other docs as you request in your message. Marcel Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: >> > > Marcel; > I partially agree with you, we do have much to celebrate, however, after > having spent thousands of dollars on data to do some quality of life > indicator work at the scale of the city, and trying to do some > demographic analysis of my neigbhourhood and some school catchment > areas, i feel we have a long way to go for the average citizen - not the > specialist - getting easy and free/no cost access to some useful data. > > Having said that, Marcel, would you be so kind as to look at our > resources page and see if there are additional resources we can add > there? You could just post them to the list if you like or put em up on > the wiki. That would be really great! http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Resources > >>So, a failure? I don't think so. I think we have to build on some of these >>successes and not try and compare ourselves to the U.S. too much. >>The federal government is not oblivious to the fact that data are mostly >>free in the US. In many cases federal and provincial hands are tied because >>of Crown Copyright and licensing policy, or they think their hands are tied >>See Werschler's "Dissemination of Government Geographic Data in Canada : >>Guide to Best Practices" at >>http://cgdi-dev.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide_to_ >>Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf >>Our data cultures are different and we can't change that overnight. >> > > i added this ref doc to the wiki here - > http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Politiques > >>The Association of Canadian Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) along with >>the Canadian Association of Public Data Users (CAPDU) have worked hard at >>negotiating data deals over the years. > > > I've added the orgs here - > http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Organizations/Organismes > if you have some good refs, fire em over and I will get em listed! > >>What we in the ACMLA have done is >>demonstrate the need for their data, how they can be used (something they >>don't always know), and how we intend to use them. The most effective >>argument we often have, however, is the ability to demonstrate to them a >>similar deal with another organization (this also works with industry). The >>strategy is often used at the provincial and local level. I realize again >>that these are academic deals but it does demonstrate the power of >>negotiation and communication and the usefulness of building on past >>successes. >> >>Marcel >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>[hidden email] >>http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca -- ------------------------------ Note: I am currently on research leave. I am monitoring my email, but it may take longer than usual for me to reply. If you require help with maps or Geographic Information Systems, please contact [hidden email] ------------------------------ Marcel Fortin GIS and Map Librarian, University of Toronto 130 St. George Street, Toronto, ON M5S 1A5 416 946 0522 |
Re: CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 40 - Bob & Marcel
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Fantastic Marcel!
One of my optimistic/utopic dreams - data access dreams that is - is to extend the dli (Data Liberation Initiative) and other academic data access infrastructures to public libraries, school boards, and community groups. I know that this would require additional hardware, software, and peopleware resources in cash strapped institutions but alas, i wonder what role the librarians (map, data and reg) + archivists can play within their associations to push for the extension of some of the excellent knowledge agreements already in place? What do you & others think? am I delusional on a sunny Friday afternoon after hours of looking into the metadata policies of science data portals? I feel a little light headed but alas is this an angle/strategy/solution to explore? cheers T ps-when i started uni but a few years ago, there was only US data to work with. And i look forward to those links. Marcel Fortin wrote: Thanks Tracey, You're right, we definetly do have a long way to go in the public realm, but, on the academic side, we have also come a long long way. When I started at the U of T in 1999, we had access to maybe 2 or 3 Canadian geospatial datasets taking up roughly about 1 gig of space mostly taken up by one orthophoto set). In 2006, I have access to probably over 100 Canadian geospatial datasets taking up over a terabyte of space, without counting the free Canadian data on the web. Again, most of this is of course through academic licensing, but I think things will progress for the general public as well. That's my hope at least. Maybe I'm too optimistic? I imagine everyone else on this listserv has hope considering the existance of the civicaccess group and listserv. I will try and add links and other docs as you request in your message. Marcel Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: |
Re: CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 40 - Bob & Marcel
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Funny you should mention that. I have thought for a few years now to try
and formulate a proposal to some public librarians here in Toronto to see if they think a demo of GIS to the general public would fly and then perhaps extend it to actually doing some outreach to the public on GIS questions. As I mentioned in a previous post, the issue could be much easier to deal with if open source software were on par with commercial software in the GIS realm, but it just isn't at that level yet. there are tons of packages, but none that do exactly what you want, other than the web mapping packages. But, there I go again. I have hope that something can still be done. I am currently writing a book while on sabbatical, a kind of How-to for GIS Services in Libraries and one of the concepts, or ideas I want to put forward with the book is that GIS should be brought into the public realm through libraries. I really believe in the concept, it's just a matter of getting some public libraries interested. There are no public libraries in canada, that I know of at least, that currently offer any gis services and I know of only one in the United States, where as you may know, they have free data! :-) Marcel Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > Fantastic Marcel! > > One of my optimistic/utopic dreams - data access dreams that is - is to > extend the dli (Data Liberation Initiative) and other academic data > access infrastructures to public libraries, school boards, and community > groups. I know that this would require additional hardware, software, > and peopleware resources in cash strapped institutions but alas, i > wonder what role the librarians (map, data and reg) + archivists can > play within their associations to push for the extension of some of the > excellent knowledge agreements already in place? > > What do you & others think? am I delusional on a sunny Friday afternoon > after hours of looking into the metadata policies of science data > portals? I feel a little light headed but alas is this an > angle/strategy/solution to explore? > > cheers > T > ps-when i started uni but a few years ago, there was only US data to > work with. And i look forward to those links. > > Marcel Fortin wrote: > >>Thanks Tracey, >>You're right, we definetly do have a long way to go in the public realm, >>but, on the academic side, we have also come a long long way. When I >>started at the U of T in 1999, we had access to maybe 2 or 3 Canadian >>geospatial datasets taking up roughly about 1 gig of space mostly taken >>up by one orthophoto set). In 2006, I have access to probably over 100 >>Canadian geospatial datasets taking up over a terabyte of space, without >>counting the free Canadian data on the web. Again, most of this is of >>course through academic licensing, but I think things will progress for >>the general public as well. That's my hope at least. Maybe I'm too >>optimistic? I imagine everyone else on this listserv has hope >>considering the existance of the civicaccess group and listserv. >> >>I will try and add links and other docs as you request in your message. >> >>Marcel >> >> >>Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: >> >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Marcel; >>>I partially agree with you, we do have much to celebrate, however, after >>>having spent thousands of dollars on data to do some quality of life >>>indicator work at the scale of the city, and trying to do some >>>demographic analysis of my neigbhourhood and some school catchment >>>areas, i feel we have a long way to go for the average citizen - not the >>>specialist - getting easy and free/no cost access to some useful data. >>> >>>Having said that, Marcel, would you be so kind as to look at our >>>resources page and see if there are additional resources we can add >>>there? You could just post them to the list if you like or put em up on >>>the wiki. That would be really great! http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Resources >>> >>> >>> >>>>So, a failure? I don't think so. I think we have to build on some of these >>>>successes and not try and compare ourselves to the U.S. too much. >>>>The federal government is not oblivious to the fact that data are mostly >>>>free in the US. In many cases federal and provincial hands are tied because >>>>of Crown Copyright and licensing policy, or they think their hands are tied >>>>See Werschler's "Dissemination of Government Geographic Data in Canada : >>>>Guide to Best Practices" at >>>>http://cgdi-dev.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide_to_ >>>>Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf >>>>Our data cultures are different and we can't change that overnight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>i added this ref doc to the wiki here - >>>http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Politiques >>> >>> >>> >>>>The Association of Canadian Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) along with >>>>the Canadian Association of Public Data Users (CAPDU) have worked hard at >>>>negotiating data deals over the years. >>>> >>>> >>>I've added the orgs here - >>>http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Organizations/Organismes >>>if you have some good refs, fire em over and I will get em listed! >>> >>> >>> >>>>What we in the ACMLA have done is >>>>demonstrate the need for their data, how they can be used (something they >>>>don't always know), and how we intend to use them. The most effective >>>>argument we often have, however, is the ability to demonstrate to them a >>>>similar deal with another organization (this also works with industry). The >>>>strategy is often used at the provincial and local level. I realize again >>>>that these are academic deals but it does demonstrate the power of >>>>negotiation and communication and the usefulness of building on past >>>>successes. >>>> >>>>Marcel >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>>>[hidden email] >>>>http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>>[hidden email] >>>http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca -- ------------------------------ Note: I am currently on research leave. I am monitoring my email, but it may take longer than usual for me to reply. If you require help with maps or Geographic Information Systems, please contact [hidden email] ------------------------------ Marcel Fortin GIS and Map Librarian, University of Toronto 130 St. George Street, Toronto, ON M5S 1A5 416 946 0522 |
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I recalled something of this kind being done some years ago in St. Louis
Missouri Public Library. A quick Google search produced this: Kofron, Charles P. and Anne Watts. "St. Louis Library's GIS Disseminates Public Information", Geo Info Systems 3 #7, July/August 1993, pp.46-50. Abstract: This article describes how the St. Louis Public Library and Regional Research and Development Services at Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville developed the Electronic Atlas, an electronic set of thematic maps containing selected data elements from the 1990 US census. The Electronic Atlas has proven to be an efficient and economical alternative to producing color copies of thematic maps from preconceived data classing schemes. On the other hand, I can find no evidence on the SLPL site that the service still exists. If not, would be interesting to know why... Andrew Hubbertz Quoting Marcel Fortin <[hidden email]>: > Funny you should mention that. I have thought for a few years now to try > and formulate a proposal to some public librarians here in Toronto to > see if they think a demo of GIS to the general public would fly and then > perhaps extend it to actually doing some outreach to the public on GIS > questions. > > As I mentioned in a previous post, the issue could be much easier to > deal with if open source software were on par with commercial software > in the GIS realm, but it just isn't at that level yet. there are tons of > packages, but none that do exactly what you want, other than the web > mapping packages. But, there I go again. I have hope that something can > still be done. > > I am currently writing a book while on sabbatical, a kind of How-to for > GIS Services in Libraries and one of the concepts, or ideas I want to > put forward with the book is that GIS should be brought into the public > realm through libraries. I really believe in the concept, it's just a > matter of getting some public libraries interested. There are no public > libraries in canada, that I know of at least, that currently offer any > gis services and I know of only one in the United States, where as you > may know, they have free data! :-) > > Marcel > > Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > > Fantastic Marcel! > > > > One of my optimistic/utopic dreams - data access dreams that is - is to > > extend the dli (Data Liberation Initiative) and other academic data > > access infrastructures to public libraries, school boards, and community > > groups. I know that this would require additional hardware, software, > > and peopleware resources in cash strapped institutions but alas, i > > wonder what role the librarians (map, data and reg) + archivists can > > play within their associations to push for the extension of some of the > > excellent knowledge agreements already in place? > > > > What do you & others think? am I delusional on a sunny Friday afternoon > > after hours of looking into the metadata policies of science data > > portals? I feel a little light headed but alas is this an > > angle/strategy/solution to explore? > > > > cheers > > T > > ps-when i started uni but a few years ago, there was only US data to > > work with. And i look forward to those links. > > > > Marcel Fortin wrote: > > > >>Thanks Tracey, > >>You're right, we definetly do have a long way to go in the public realm, > >>but, on the academic side, we have also come a long long way. When I > >>started at the U of T in 1999, we had access to maybe 2 or 3 Canadian > >>geospatial datasets taking up roughly about 1 gig of space mostly taken > >>up by one orthophoto set). In 2006, I have access to probably over 100 > >>Canadian geospatial datasets taking up over a terabyte of space, without > >>counting the free Canadian data on the web. Again, most of this is of > >>course through academic licensing, but I think things will progress for > >>the general public as well. That's my hope at least. Maybe I'm too > >>optimistic? I imagine everyone else on this listserv has hope > >>considering the existance of the civicaccess group and listserv. > >> > >>I will try and add links and other docs as you request in your message. > >> > >>Marcel > >> > >> > >>Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Marcel; > >>>I partially agree with you, we do have much to celebrate, however, after > >>>having spent thousands of dollars on data to do some quality of life > >>>indicator work at the scale of the city, and trying to do some > >>>demographic analysis of my neigbhourhood and some school catchment > >>>areas, i feel we have a long way to go for the average citizen - not the > >>>specialist - getting easy and free/no cost access to some useful data. > >>> > >>>Having said that, Marcel, would you be so kind as to look at our > >>>resources page and see if there are additional resources we can add > >>>there? You could just post them to the list if you like or put em up on > >>>the wiki. That would be really great! > http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Resources > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>So, a failure? I don't think so. I think we have to build on some of > these > >>>>successes and not try and compare ourselves to the U.S. too much. > >>>>The federal government is not oblivious to the fact that data are mostly > >>>>free in the US. In many cases federal and provincial hands are tied > because > >>>>of Crown Copyright and licensing policy, or they think their hands are > tied > >>>>See Werschler's "Dissemination of Government Geographic Data in Canada : > >>>>Guide to Best Practices" at > >>>>http://cgdi-dev.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide_to_ > >>>>Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf > >>>>Our data cultures are different and we can't change that overnight. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>i added this ref doc to the wiki here - > >>>http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Politiques > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>The Association of Canadian Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) along with > >>>>the Canadian Association of Public Data Users (CAPDU) have worked hard at > >>>>negotiating data deals over the years. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>I've added the orgs here - > >>>http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Organizations/Organismes > >>>if you have some good refs, fire em over and I will get em listed! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>What we in the ACMLA have done is > >>>>demonstrate the need for their data, how they can be used (something they > >>>>don't always know), and how we intend to use them. The most effective > >>>>argument we often have, however, is the ability to demonstrate to them a > >>>>similar deal with another organization (this also works with industry). > The > >>>>strategy is often used at the provincial and local level. I realize again > >>>>that these are academic deals but it does demonstrate the power of > >>>>negotiation and communication and the usefulness of building on past > >>>>successes. > >>>> > >>>>Marcel > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > >>>>[hidden email] > >>>>http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > >>>[hidden email] > >>>http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca > > -- > ------------------------------ > Note: I am currently on research leave. > I am monitoring my email, but it may take longer than usual for me to reply. > If you require help with maps or Geographic Information Systems, please > contact [hidden email] > ------------------------------ > Marcel Fortin > GIS and Map Librarian, University of Toronto > 130 St. George Street, Toronto, ON M5S 1A5 416 946 0522 > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca > Andrew Hubbertz Librarian Emeritus University of Saskatchewan Library 613 692 2709 [hidden email] |
Re: CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 40 - Bob & Marcel
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Hi:
I really haven't had time to read all of this, but a quick question: Has anyone checked out Google Maps. It allows you to connect all sorts of data to maps. Carmen Kazakoff-Lane -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of [hidden email] Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:16 PM To: civicaccess discuss Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 7,Issue 40 - Bob & Marcel I recalled something of this kind being done some years ago in St. Louis Missouri Public Library. A quick Google search produced this: Kofron, Charles P. and Anne Watts. "St. Louis Library's GIS Disseminates Public Information", Geo Info Systems 3 #7, July/August 1993, pp.46-50. Abstract: This article describes how the St. Louis Public Library and Regional Research and Development Services at Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville developed the Electronic Atlas, an electronic set of thematic maps containing selected data elements from the 1990 US census. The Electronic Atlas has proven to be an efficient and economical alternative to producing color copies of thematic maps from preconceived data classing schemes. On the other hand, I can find no evidence on the SLPL site that the service still exists. If not, would be interesting to know why... Andrew Hubbertz Quoting Marcel Fortin <[hidden email]>: > Funny you should mention that. I have thought for a few years now to try > and formulate a proposal to some public librarians here in Toronto to > see if they think a demo of GIS to the general public would fly and then > perhaps extend it to actually doing some outreach to the public on GIS > questions. > > As I mentioned in a previous post, the issue could be much easier to > deal with if open source software were on par with commercial software > in the GIS realm, but it just isn't at that level yet. there are tons of > packages, but none that do exactly what you want, other than the web > mapping packages. But, there I go again. I have hope that something can > still be done. > > I am currently writing a book while on sabbatical, a kind of How-to for > GIS Services in Libraries and one of the concepts, or ideas I want to > put forward with the book is that GIS should be brought into the public > realm through libraries. I really believe in the concept, it's just a > matter of getting some public libraries interested. There are no public > libraries in canada, that I know of at least, that currently offer any > gis services and I know of only one in the United States, where as you > may know, they have free data! :-) > > Marcel > > Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > > Fantastic Marcel! > > > > One of my optimistic/utopic dreams - data access dreams that is - is to > > extend the dli (Data Liberation Initiative) and other academic data > > access infrastructures to public libraries, school boards, and community > > groups. I know that this would require additional hardware, software, > > and peopleware resources in cash strapped institutions but alas, i > > wonder what role the librarians (map, data and reg) + archivists can > > play within their associations to push for the extension of some of the > > excellent knowledge agreements already in place? > > > > What do you & others think? am I delusional on a sunny Friday afternoon > > after hours of looking into the metadata policies of science data > > portals? I feel a little light headed but alas is this an > > angle/strategy/solution to explore? > > > > cheers > > T > > ps-when i started uni but a few years ago, there was only US data to > > work with. And i look forward to those links. > > > > Marcel Fortin wrote: > > > >>Thanks Tracey, > >>You're right, we definetly do have a long way to go in the public realm, > >>but, on the academic side, we have also come a long long way. When I > >>started at the U of T in 1999, we had access to maybe 2 or 3 Canadian > >>geospatial datasets taking up roughly about 1 gig of space mostly taken > >>up by one orthophoto set). In 2006, I have access to probably over 100 > >>Canadian geospatial datasets taking up over a terabyte of space, without > >>counting the free Canadian data on the web. Again, most of this is of > >>course through academic licensing, but I think things will progress for > >>the general public as well. That's my hope at least. Maybe I'm too > >>optimistic? I imagine everyone else on this listserv has hope > >>considering the existance of the civicaccess group and listserv. > >> > >>I will try and add links and other docs as you request in your message. > >> > >>Marcel > >> > >> > >>Tracey P. Lauriault wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Marcel; > >>>I partially agree with you, we do have much to celebrate, however, > >>>having spent thousands of dollars on data to do some quality of life > >>>indicator work at the scale of the city, and trying to do some > >>>demographic analysis of my neigbhourhood and some school catchment > >>>areas, i feel we have a long way to go for the average citizen - not the > >>>specialist - getting easy and free/no cost access to some useful data. > >>> > >>>Having said that, Marcel, would you be so kind as to look at our > >>>resources page and see if there are additional resources we can add > >>>there? You could just post them to the list if you like or put em up on > >>>the wiki. That would be really great! > http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Resources > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>So, a failure? I don't think so. I think we have to build on some of > these > >>>>successes and not try and compare ourselves to the U.S. too much. > >>>>The federal government is not oblivious to the fact that data are mostly > >>>>free in the US. In many cases federal and provincial hands are tied > because > >>>>of Crown Copyright and licensing policy, or they think their hands are > tied > >>>>See Werschler's "Dissemination of Government Geographic Data in Canada : > >>>>Guide to Best Practices" at > >>>>http://cgdi-dev.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide _to_ > >>>>Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf > >>>>Our data cultures are different and we can't change that overnight. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>i added this ref doc to the wiki here - > >>>http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Politiques > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>The Association of Canadian Map Libraries and Archives (ACMLA) along > >>>>the Canadian Association of Public Data Users (CAPDU) have worked hard at > >>>>negotiating data deals over the years. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>I've added the orgs here - > >>>http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Organizations/Organismes > >>>if you have some good refs, fire em over and I will get em listed! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>What we in the ACMLA have done is > >>>>demonstrate the need for their data, how they can be used (something > >>>>don't always know), and how we intend to use them. The most effective > >>>>argument we often have, however, is the ability to demonstrate to them a > >>>>similar deal with another organization (this also works with industry). > The > >>>>strategy is often used at the provincial and local level. I realize again > >>>>that these are academic deals but it does demonstrate the power of > >>>>negotiation and communication and the usefulness of building on past > >>>>successes. > >>>> > >>>>Marcel > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > >>>>[hidden email] > >>>>http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.c > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > >>>[hidden email] > >>>http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > > [hidden email] > > > > -- > ------------------------------ > Note: I am currently on research leave. > I am monitoring my email, but it may take longer than usual for me to reply. > If you require help with maps or Geographic Information Systems, please > contact [hidden email] > ------------------------------ > Marcel Fortin > GIS and Map Librarian, University of Toronto > 130 St. George Street, Toronto, ON M5S 1A5 416 946 0522 > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca > Andrew Hubbertz Librarian Emeritus University of Saskatchewan Library 613 692 2709 [hidden email] _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://civicaccess.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss_civicaccess.ca |
Re: CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 40 - Bob & Marcel
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Thanks Carmen!
Google allows you to view road maps & some mosaicked remote sensing images, allows you to create some mashups and to put some points on the map, it is however not a data download site in the sense we are discussing here, and one cannot do any analysis with that data. It does allow you to do some fun stuff, add some local content and navigate around the world. There are a wide variety of data resources listed on the civicaccess.ca wiki that you may find interesting - http://civicaccess.ca/wiki/Resources. Andrew, is suggesting that a local public library could also become a data library and help citizens in their community learn about their neighbourhoods, or acquire data to inform planning decisions and such. I was also entertaining myself yesterday morning at GoogleMap's expense - you can read a biased view here - http://serendipityoucity.blogsome.com/2006/06/04/critical-thinking-about-satellite-imagery/ Cheers T Carmen Kazakoff Lane wrote: Hi: I really haven't had time to read all of this, but a quick question: Has anyone checked out Google Maps. It allows you to connect all sorts of data to maps. Carmen Kazakoff-Lane -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]]On Behalf Of [hidden email] Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:16 PM To: civicaccess discuss Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 7,Issue 40 - Bob & Marcel I recalled something of this kind being done some years ago in St. Louis Missouri Public Library. A quick Google search produced this: Kofron, Charles P. and Anne Watts. "St. Louis Library's GIS Disseminates Public Information", Geo Info Systems 3 #7, July/August 1993, pp.46-50. Abstract: This article describes how the St. Louis Public Library and Regional Research and Development Services at Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville developed the Electronic Atlas, an electronic set of thematic maps containing selected data elements from the 1990 US census. The Electronic Atlas has proven to be an efficient and economical alternative to producing color copies of thematic maps from preconceived data classing schemes. On the other hand, I can find no evidence on the SLPL site that the service still exists. If not, would be interesting to know why... Andrew Hubbertz Quoting Marcel Fortin [hidden email]: |
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