Re: CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 34, Issue 31

[Mark Weiler]

Tracey,

First, an observation about language usage. "Request" carries with it a connotation of "asking". However, with access to information legislation the purpose is to provide statutory assurance of public access to most records. There's a class of exemptions called discretionary exemptions to which the state retains the option of withholding but the state has the burden of proof to show that information falls within those specific classes of information. Until they demonstrate the proof, you are not requesting anything, rather you are ordering the records, much like one would order a milkshake from a restaurant.

For this reason, congratulations on placing an order!

Under legislation I've seen the state isn't required to answer questions but provide access to records. But questions can be reframed as statements for documents. It's nice to have documents orders in point form (i), (ii), (iii). When the dispatched records arrive it's easy to check against the list this way.

My suggestion is to issue two additional ATI orders asking for the text of previous ATI orders for which section 11.1 was not exercised and to which 11.6 was exercised. Moreover order communication where requests were made for the exercise of those sections. Limit to the previous year ending date of receipt of your ATI order.

TBCS and StatsCan will dispatch records relate to previous ATI orders to which fee were waived or not levied. Should with your principal orders they say there's additional fees and should you like to ask for fee to be waived, you will be stocked with examples in which fees were waived.

Also, the TBCS form isn't needed. ATI orders can be issued in any written form.

best of luck!

Mark Weiler

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Cost of Data - ATIP requests - StatCan & TBC
      (Tracey P. Lauriault)
   2. Re: Cost of Data - ATIP requests - StatCan & TBC (Drew Mcpherson)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 16:42:46 -0400
From: "Tracey P. Lauriault" <[hidden email]>
To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Cost of Data - ATIP requests -
        StatCan & TBC
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Gerhard;

Canada may be different, so lets be ideal optimists.  Also, each department
has to account its revenue and costs and these may be bundeled under
headings, in the case of the Census it will be grouped with social
statistics programs.

Also, the Census must get approval from Cabinet and the Treasury and must
submit a budget for it and costs so it too is tracked.  I have accessed
previous budgets for the Census and they are pretty detailed as it is a self
contained activity.  What might not be tracked is the revenue generated by
its sale as that occurs in a different office.  But surely there is
accounting as the statcan budget is tight and all must be justified.

So, lets not be nay sayers just yet.

I would still love to hear from anyone about my requests and if i missed
anything.

cheers
t

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Content Research
<[hidden email]>wrote:

>  Dear Drew,
>
> as already communicated bilaterally to Tracey:
>
> Even in those countries where the Treasury and not each
> public data holder collects the revenues (of sale and re-use licenses
> of public data), the Treasury cannot provide you a total sum
> of all these revenues.
>
> And in some countries it is even more complex,
> since public institutions charge each other for data access.
> So sorting out these different revenue streams from
> A2A, A2B, A2C - both access and re-use - is not
> done by any country.
>
> Best,
>
>
> Gerhard
>
>
> At 21:12 25.05.2010, Drew Mcpherson wrote:
>
> Hi Tracey,
>
> The base fee for ATIP / FOI requests is $5 bucks true, but aren't there
> incidentals such as a person's time, photocopying expenses, etc that they
> hit you with once they assess how complex the request is?  I'd be curious to
> hear about this as it may become relevant to one of my projects.
>
> Thanks,
> Drew Mcpherson
>
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>  Greetings all;
>
> As some of you may know, I am doing my PhD dissertation on the topic of
> access to data in Canada and I am investigating NRCan and StatCan and more
> specifically geodata from the former and the census for the latter.
>
> I have met with many excellent and very dedicated officials at StatCan,
> have made numerous calls, but alas have not been able to crack the revenue
> and the cost of generating that revenue nut.  So today I have sent the
> following ATIP requests.
>
> Can any of you think of anything else I should/could be asking for or point
> me to where I might find some of that information that would be awesome?
> Any other ideas would be great!
>
> Also, you might also want to submit the same or a similar request - it is
> only 5 bucks!  (Here is the link to the forms Access to Information
> Request Form <http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/350-57-eng.asp> (TBC/CTC
> 350-57) ? This form is used for public requests for government information.
> Complete steps 1 through 4 to get the information you need and you have the
> addresse below).  The more who ask the merrier I figure!
>
> Should we be asking the auditor general to review the cost of cost recovery
> in real terms?
>
> Here are the requests (Addresses are below all):
>
> Treasury Board of Canada What is the cost of the Censuses of 1981, 86, 91,
> 96, 01, 06 and projected for 2010?  I would like the breakdown of those
> costs.  The budgets for the census used to be reported in the StatCan
> Administrative Census Reports.  I have found budgets and actual costs for
> 1951, 56, 66 and 71 and I found some general references to the cost of the
> Census per household for later years. What is the overhead cost incurred
> by Statistics Canada to market, manage, and sell Census data? Reports
> discuss cost recovery but do not include the cost accounting to do so nor
> the cost of recovering those costs. What are the cost share agreements
> between StatCan and other Federal, Provincial and Territorial governments?
> What are the amounts between each, what are the agreements and what do they
> contain.  This information was once published along with cost share amounts
> and formulas, see StatCan publication 1984 Cat#99-903. What are the
> revenues generated by StatCan's selling of the Census? Please provide
> revenue for the following years and a breakdown as to how those were
> calculated, 1981, 06, 91, 96, 01, 06 and proposed for 2011. How much
> revenue has Statistics Canada collected for the following years, and how did
> it do so? 1986-2011. Statistics Canada Agendas, decision, papers and
> schedules of meetings of the Federal-Provincial-Territorial Consultative
> Council on Statistical Policy.  I am particularly interested in matters
> pertaining to the Census, cost recovery, and the cost of data. I am
> seeking the list of Professional Advisory Committees, their mandates, the
> frequency of their meetings and generally who are the members of these
> committees.  I am particularly interested in matters pertaining to the
> Census, cost recovery, and the cost of data. Please provide the content
> and nature of the Bilateral relationships with federal departments.  Are
> there any formal agreements? And if so with which agencies and what is the
> nature and content of these. BEING PROCESSED - I ask about the members,
> agendas, minutes, decisions, regarding the National Statistical Council of
> Canada.
> Statistics Canada
> Philip Giles
> Access to Information and Privacy Coordinator
> R.H. Coats Building
> 120 Parkdale Avenue, 25th Floor, Section B
> Ottawa, Ontario  K1A 0T6
> Telephone: [phone]
> Facsimile: 613-951-3825
> [hidden email]
>
> Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
> Denise Brennan
> Director, Access to Information and Privacy
> L'Esplanade Laurier, East Tower
> 140 O'Connor Street, 8th Floor
> Ottawa, Ontario  K1A 0R5
> Telephone: [phone]
> Facsimile: 613-946-6256
>  [hidden email]
> Cheers
> Tracey
> --
> Tracey P. Lauriault
> 613-234-2805
>  https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>  [hidden email]
>  http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
>  http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

--
Tracey P. Lauriault
613-234-2805
https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 18:19:16 -0300
From: Drew Mcpherson <[hidden email]>
To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Cost of Data - ATIP requests -
        StatCan & TBC
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Hi Tracey,

I looked over your stated requests in more detail and indeed notice the
complexity therein.  These are the kinds of questions that large businesses
need to know the answers to in order to be successful.  Government seems not
to be worried about "going out of business", and so I can definitely see
that they wouldn't have this stuff at their fingertips.  If this is the case
(as seems likely, and was pointed out by another list member), then the
information you're asking for would require that they perform an information
gathering and summary operation that could take years to complete.  It's not
likely to cost 5 bucks.  Especially considering the effort I had to go
through to consolidate the mere travel and hospitality budget, which is
probably of a much higher level of organization because of the proactive
disclosure mandate.

Therefore, I'm quite curious to hear the response you get.

Cheers,
Drew Mcpherson



On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Gerhard;
>
> Canada may be different, so lets be ideal optimists.  Also, each department
> has to account its revenue and costs and these may be bundeled under
> headings, in the case of the Census it will be grouped with social
> statistics programs.
>
> Also, the Census must get approval from Cabinet and the Treasury and must
> submit a budget for it and costs so it too is tracked.  I have accessed
> previous budgets for the Census and they are pretty detailed as it is a self
> contained activity.  What might not be tracked is the revenue generated by
> its sale as that occurs in a different office.  But surely there is
> accounting as the statcan budget is tight and all must be justified.
>
> So, lets not be nay sayers just yet.
>
> I would still love to hear from anyone about my requests and if i missed
> anything.
>
> cheers
> t
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Content Research <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
>>  Dear Drew,
>>
>> as already communicated bilaterally to Tracey:
>>
>> Even in those countries where the Treasury and not each
>> public data holder collects the revenues (of sale and re-use licenses
>> of public data), the Treasury cannot provide you a total sum
>> of all these revenues.
>>
>> And in some countries it is even more complex,
>> since public institutions charge each other for data access.
>> So sorting out these different revenue streams from
>> A2A, A2B, A2C - both access and re-use - is not
>> done by any country.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Gerhard
>>
>>
>> At 21:12 25.05.2010, Drew Mcpherson wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tracey,
>>
>> The base fee for ATIP / FOI requests is $5 bucks true, but aren't there
>> incidentals such as a person's time, photocopying expenses, etc that they
>> hit you with once they assess how complex the request is?  I'd be curious to
>> hear about this as it may become relevant to one of my projects.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Drew Mcpherson
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>  Greetings all;
>>
>> As some of you may know, I am doing my PhD dissertation on the topic of
>> access to data in Canada and I am investigating NRCan and StatCan and more
>> specifically geodata from the former and the census for the latter.
>>
>> I have met with many excellent and very dedicated officials at StatCan,
>> have made numerous calls, but alas have not been able to crack the revenue
>> and the cost of generating that revenue nut.  So today I have sent the
>> following ATIP requests.
>>
>> Can any of you think of anything else I should/could be asking for or
>> point me to where I might find some of that information that would be
>> awesome?  Any other ideas would be great!
>>
>> Also, you might also want to submit the same or a similar request - it is
>> only 5 bucks!  (Here is the link to the forms Access to Information
>> Request Form <http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/350-57-eng.asp> (TBC/CTC
>> 350-57) ? This form is used for public requests for government information.
>> Complete steps 1 through 4 to get the information you need and you have the
>> addresse below).  The more who ask the merrier I figure!
>>
>> Should we be asking the auditor general to review the cost of cost
>> recovery in real terms?
>>
>> Here are the requests (Addresses are below all):
>>
>> Treasury Board of Canada What is the cost of the Censuses of 1981, 86,
>> 91, 96, 01, 06 and projected for 2010?  I would like the breakdown of those
>> costs.  The budgets for the census used to be reported in the StatCan
>> Administrative Census Reports.  I have found budgets and actual costs for
>> 1951, 56, 66 and 71 and I found some general references to the cost of the
>> Census per household for later years. What is the overhead cost incurred
>> by Statistics Canada to market, manage, and sell Census data? Reports
>> discuss cost recovery but do not include the cost accounting to do so nor
>> the cost of recovering those costs. What are the cost share agreements
>> between StatCan and other Federal, Provincial and Territorial governments?
>> What are the amounts between each, what are the agreements and what do they
>> contain.  This information was once published along with cost share amounts
>> and formulas, see StatCan publication 1984 Cat#99-903. What are the
>> revenues generated by StatCan's selling of the Census? Please provide
>> revenue for the following years and a breakdown as to how those were
>> calculated, 1981, 06, 91, 96, 01, 06 and proposed for 2011. How much
>> revenue has Statistics Canada collected for the following years, and how did
>> it do so? 1986-2011. Statistics Canada Agendas, decision, papers and
>> schedules of meetings of the Federal-Provincial-Territorial Consultative
>> Council on Statistical Policy.  I am particularly interested in matters
>> pertaining to the Census, cost recovery, and the cost of data. I am
>> seeking the list of Professional Advisory Committees, their mandates, the
>> frequency of their meetings and generally who are the members of these
>> committees.  I am particularly interested in matters pertaining to the
>> Census, cost recovery, and the cost of data. Please provide the content
>> and nature of the Bilateral relationships with federal departments.  Are
>> there any formal agreements? And if so with which agencies and what is the
>> nature and content of these. BEING PROCESSED - I ask about the members,
>> agendas, minutes, decisions, regarding the National Statistical Council of
>> Canada.
>> Statistics Canada
>> Philip Giles
>> Access to Information and Privacy Coordinator
>> R.H. Coats Building
>> 120 Parkdale Avenue, 25th Floor, Section B
>> Ottawa, Ontario  K1A 0T6
>> Telephone: [phone]
>> Facsimile: 613-951-3825
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
>> Denise Brennan
>> Director, Access to Information and Privacy
>> L'Esplanade Laurier, East Tower
>> 140 O'Connor Street, 8th Floor
>> Ottawa, Ontario  K1A 0R5
>> Telephone: [phone]
>> Facsimile: 613-946-6256
>>  [hidden email]
>> Cheers
>> Tracey
>> --
>> Tracey P. Lauriault
>> 613-234-2805
>>  https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>  [hidden email]
>>  http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>>  http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Tracey P. Lauriault
> 613-234-2805
> https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

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End of CivicAccess-discuss Digest, Vol 34, Issue 31
***************************************************

[Drew Mcpherson]

Good points Mark!

I think this is the confusion.  The information Tracey requested likely doesn't exist in any document or on any record.  If the restaurant doesn't have chocolate milkshakes you can try to order a chocolate milkshake all you want, but all they're going to say is they don't have it, it's not available.  It's not like the restaurant manager is going to run off to the wholesaler and stock chocolate milkshakes just because one customer requested it.  Now, if a whole slew of people were to make a request and/or lobby to have this information available that might sway some decision makers.

Cheers,
Drew

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Mark Weiler <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tracey,

First, an observation about language usage. "Request" carries with it a connotation of "asking". However, with access to information legislation the purpose is to provide statutory assurance of public access to most records. There's a class of exemptions called discretionary exemptions to which the state retains the option of withholding but the state has the burden of proof to show that information falls within those specific classes of information. Until they demonstrate the proof, you are not requesting anything, rather you are ordering the records, much like one would order a milkshake from a restaurant.

For this reason, congratulations on placing an order!

Under legislation I've seen the state isn't required to answer questions but provide access to records. But questions can be reframed as statements for documents. It's nice to have documents orders in point form (i), (ii), (iii). When the dispatched records arrive it's easy to check against the list this way.

My suggestion is to issue two additional ATI orders asking for the text of previous ATI orders for which section 11.1 was not exercised and to which 11.6 was exercised. Moreover order communication where requests were made for the exercise of those sections. Limit to the previous year ending date of receipt of your ATI order.

TBCS and StatsCan will dispatch records relate to previous ATI orders to which fee were waived or not levied. Should with your principal orders they say there's additional fees and should you like to ask for fee to be waived, you will be stocked with examples in which fees were waived.

Also, the TBCS form isn't needed. ATI orders can be issued in any written form.

best of luck!

Mark Weiler