Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement on 2011 Census

[Russell McOrmond-3]

   I thought I would forward this.  This case is not closed.
Embarrassing that there will be at least one Census where useful data
isn't collected.

   Yet another egghead vs Neanderthal debate -- the rhetoric from those
opposed to the long form is really out there, but unfortunately quite
"populist" in nature.  Like other issues I'm involved in, I don't think
the general public will understand the significance of this.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Minister of Industry - Statement on 2011 Census
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:01:42 -0400
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]



       Statement on 2011 Census

*Ottawa, July 13, 2010* — The Minister of Industry, the Honourable Tony
Clement, made the following statement:

"The federal census conducted by Statistics Canada collects information
from Canadians every five years to provide a demographic picture of our
country. The questions necessary to achieve this goal are in the
mandatory eight-question short-form version of the census that is sent
to all Canadian households.

"In the past, the Government of Canada received complaints about the
long-form census from citizens who felt it was an intrusion of their
privacy. The government does not think it is necessary for Canadians to
provide Statistics Canada with the number of bedrooms in their home, or
what time of the day they leave for work, or how long it takes them to
get there. The government does not believe it is appropriate to force
Canadians to divulge detailed personal information under threat of
prosecution.

"For this reason, we have introduced changes for the 2011 Census. The
government will retain the mandatory short form that will collect basic
demographic information. To meet the need for additional information,
and to respect the privacy wishes of Canadians, the government has
introduced the voluntary National Household Survey (NHS).

"Statistics Canada will conduct and release this survey, applying the
same standards used for its surveys and past censuses. To promote data
accuracy, this voluntary survey will be sent to a larger cross-section
of households than the old long-form census.

"The census and the NHS will continue to supply data reflective of the
attitudes and opinions of Canadians for the use of governments and
public policy-makers. The census and NHS will also continue to respect
the government's commitment to official languages. For these reasons,
the government believes the NHS is a more appropriate survey and will
not be revisiting the issue of the old long form.

"We believe the new form that will be used in 2011 will reasonably limit
what Canadians felt was an intrusion of their privacy. I strongly
encourage Canadians to participate in the new NHS."

For further information (media only), please contact:

Lynn Meahan
Press Secretary
Office of the Honourable Tony Clement
Minister of Industry
613-995-9001

Media Relations
Industry Canada
613-943-2502


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[The Munroes]

So, let me get this straight...

 

Tax payers are suppose to spend more for less reliability and continuity because some people have complained about divulging how long it takes to drive to work?

 

Commute times are important for planners, aren't they? Doesn't reliable info help us make things better for Canadians?

 

Aren't those who complain about the long form the same as those who complain about the short form? So why not send out the short form in hopes people will respond?

 

The Minister does not understand the benefits of informed decisions.

 

Ridiculous!

 

Warren

 

----- Original Message -----
From: Russell McOrmond <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 5:51 am
Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement on 2011 Census
To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]>

>
>    I thought I would forward this.  This case is
> not closed.
> Embarrassing that there will be at least one Census where useful
> data
> isn't collected.
>
>    Yet another egghead vs Neanderthal debate -- the
> rhetoric from those
> opposed to the long form is really out there, but unfortunately
> quite
> "populist" in nature.  Like other issues I'm involved in, I
> don't think
> the general public will understand the significance of this.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject:  Minister of Industry - Statement on 2011 Census
> Date:  Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:01:42 -0400
> From:  [hidden email]
> To:  [hidden email]
>
>
>
>        Statement on 2011 Census
>
> *Ottawa, July 13, 2010* — The Minister of Industry, the
> Honourable Tony
> Clement, made the following statement:
>
> "The federal census conducted by Statistics Canada collects
> informationfrom Canadians every five years to provide a
> demographic picture of our
> country. The questions necessary to achieve this goal are in the
> mandatory eight-question short-form version of the census that
> is sent
> to all Canadian households.
>
> "In the past, the Government of Canada received complaints about the
> long-form census from citizens who felt it was an intrusion of their
> privacy. The government does not think it is necessary for
> Canadians to
> provide Statistics Canada with the number of bedrooms in their
> home, or
> what time of the day they leave for work, or how long it takes
> them to
> get there. The government does not believe it is appropriate to force
> Canadians to divulge detailed personal information under threat of
> prosecution.
>
> "For this reason, we have introduced changes for the 2011
> Census. The
> government will retain the mandatory short form that will
> collect basic
> demographic information. To meet the need for additional information,
> and to respect the privacy wishes of Canadians, the government has
> introduced the voluntary National Household Survey (NHS).
>
> "Statistics Canada will conduct and release this survey,
> applying the
> same standards used for its surveys and past censuses. To
> promote data
> accuracy, this voluntary survey will be sent to a larger cross-section
> of households than the old long-form census.
>
> "The census and the NHS will continue to supply data reflective
> of the
> attitudes and opinions of Canadians for the use of governments and
> public policy-makers. The census and NHS will also continue to respect
> the government's commitment to official languages. For these reasons,
> the government believes the NHS is a more appropriate survey and will
> not be revisiting the issue of the old long form.
>
> "We believe the new form that will be used in 2011 will
> reasonably limit
> what Canadians felt was an intrusion of their privacy. I strongly
> encourage Canadians to participate in the new NHS."
>
> For further information (media only), please contact:
>
> Lynn Meahan
> Press Secretary
> Office of the Honourable Tony Clement
> Minister of Industry
> 613-995-9001
>
> Media Relations
> Industry Canada
> 613-943-2502
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
>
> You are receiving this email because you have registered with Industry
> Canada's email list to receive news releases and media
> advisories with
> the email address [hidden email].
>
> See what additional Industry Canada information is available by email
> <http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/ic1.nsf/eng/h_00189.html> and
> RSS feed
> <http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/ic1.nsf/eng/h_04939.html>.
>
> Please visit our Media Room
> <http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/ic1.nsf/eng/h_00008.html> for more
> Industry Canada news.
>
> To unsubscribe, please visit our subscription page
> <http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/ic1.nsf/eng/02936.html>.
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

[Frank Warmerdam]

The Munroes wrote:

> So, let me get this straight...
>  
> Tax payers are suppose to spend more for less reliability and continuity
> because some people have complained about divulging how long it takes to
> drive to work?
>  
> Commute times are important for planners, aren't they? Doesn't reliable
> info help us make things better for Canadians?
>  
> Aren't those who complain about the long form the same as those who
> complain about the short form? So why not send out the short form in
> hopes people will respond?
>  
> The Minister does not understand the benefits of informed decisions.
>  
> Ridiculous!

Folks,

I don't want to come across as a supporter of the current government.  I'm
not.  But there is a legitimate tension between the value of long form
information and the intrusion into peoples privacy to collect detailed
information on penalty of prosecution.   I also don't think we need to
automatically assume some deep dark conspiracy behind the decision to
remove the census item from the review.

I am unambiguously in support of the long census form being mandatory,
and I'm disappointed that the proposal was ruled out of scope for the
public information review.  But lets try to keep some sense of balance
and perspective here!

I do think it is desirable to get more academics, NGOs and other
government levels that depend on the long form data to advocate on it's
behalf.

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, [hidden email]
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush    | Geospatial Programmer for Rent

[The Munroes]

Frank Warmerdam,

 

What "deep and dark conspiracy" are you talking about? Not understanding the importance of reliable information?

 

Privacy versus public concerns is an age old tension, but the reasons given by the Minister are ( I would humbly suggest) Ridiculous!

 

I did not make the statement

"In the past, the Government of Canada received complaints about the  long-form census from citizens who felt it was an intrusion of their  privacy. The government does not think it is necessary for  Canadians to  provide Statistics Canada with the number of bedrooms in their  home, or what time of the day they leave for work, or how long it takes them to  get there."  The Minister of Industry, the Honourable Tony Clement made this statement and as mentioned above, it is Ridiculous! Plain and simple.

 

Commuting information is used extensively in an attempt to improve conditions. The 20% sample is used as the bench mark for many post censal estimates and projections because it is the most reliable dataset available for many topics.

 

I have found that many citizens are not aware of the information available (but are aware of hockey statistics). Being informed and consulted is an important part of good decision making.

 

I use 20% sample regularly in my articles about our area and show it to my students and at public forums. 

 

Instead of yelling and getting upset about changes they have not been informed about, people listen and ask questions when information is provided ...... being informed is a big difference from being uninformed.

 

Perhaps what reliable information advocates should do is to emphasis the value of the information rather than emphasis private interests.

 

And what sense of "balance and perspective" are you talking about? 

 

You also mention .... "I do think it is desirable to get more academics, NGOs and other government levels that depend on the long form data to advocate on it's behalf." Being a democracry and all, would you also find it desirable for citizens / voters to also advocate?

 

Warren

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Warmerdam <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 10:26 am
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement on 2011 Census
To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]>

> The Munroes wrote:
> > So, let me get this straight...
> > 
> > Tax payers are suppose to spend more for less reliability and
> continuity
> > because some people have complained about divulging how long
> it takes to
> > drive to work?
> > 
> > Commute times are important for planners, aren't they? Doesn't
> reliable
> > info help us make things better for Canadians?
> > 
> > Aren't those who complain about the long form the same as
> those who
> > complain about the short form? So why not send out the short
> form in
> > hopes people will respond?
> > 
> > The Minister does not understand the benefits of informed decisions.
> > 
> > Ridiculous!
>
> Folks,
>
> I don't want to come across as a supporter of the current
> government.  I'm
> not.  But there is a legitimate tension between the value
> of long form
> information and the intrusion into peoples privacy to collect detailed
> information on penalty of prosecution.   I also don't
> think we need to
> automatically assume some deep dark conspiracy behind the
> decision to
> remove the census item from the review.
>
> I am unambiguously in support of the long census form being mandatory,
> and I'm disappointed that the proposal was ruled out of scope
> for the
> public information review.  But lets try to keep some sense
> of balance
> and perspective here!
>
> I do think it is desirable to get more academics, NGOs and other
> government levels that depend on the long form data to advocate
> on it's
> behalf.
>
> Best regards,
> --
> ---------------------------------------+-------------------------
> -------------
> I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank
> Warmerdam, [hidden email]
> light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
> and watch the world go round - Rush    |
> Geospatial Programmer for Rent
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

[Karl Dubost]

Hi,

this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
not think there will be any gain into it if we
start by making binary comments about it.

        "In the past, the Government of Canada
        received complaints about the long-form
        census from citizens who felt it was an
        intrusion of their privacy. The
        government does not think it is
        necessary for Canadians to provide
        Statistics Canada with the number of
        bedrooms in their home, or what time of
        the day they leave for work, or how long
        it takes them to get there."

This statement says that some citizens are
uncomfortable with the data which are collected
about them. It tells me that more and more people
are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.

That is good specifically in the context of networks.
http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws

Sharing your information means that you have to know how
it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
this information is highly connected to personnalized and
geolocalized data.

In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
getting the information out there and get a social network
catastrophe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal

Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
careful of the society we want too.



--
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/

[Heather Morrison]

My two bits:

As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form in  
the past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my  
concern about being forced to fill out this form.

Some things to think about:

The lastest census form gives the option to make your data available  
openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?  In  
the past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very  
optimistic person; I believe that the problems with climate change can  
be solved, and that we can have peace on earth, and that we should  
therefore get cracking and make these things happen.  However, it my  
opinion it would be naive to assume that this will happen.

Any information that I include on a census form to be released even in  
the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or  
ethnicity, could result in discrimination or even a death sentence for  
my descendants.  There have been times when merely being identified as  
a Jew, or a Hutu, put people on a death list.

Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First Nations  
person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the  
influence of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial  
profiling is actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the  
Japanese people and put them in internment camps.

It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have such  
confidence in our government - both current and future - that the  
possibility of our own government misusing such information as is  
collected via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be occurring  
to people.  We are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own confidence  
in this area is strong; but it is not 100%, and I would prefer that  
our government only collect such information tied to individuals as it  
really needs to govern the country and provide services to Canadians.

best,

Heather Morrison
[hidden email]

On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:

> Hi,
>
> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
> not think there will be any gain into it if we
> start by making binary comments about it.
>
>        "In the past, the Government of Canada
>        received complaints about the long-form
>        census from citizens who felt it was an
>        intrusion of their privacy. The
>        government does not think it is
>        necessary for Canadians to provide
>        Statistics Canada with the number of
>        bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>        the day they leave for work, or how long
>        it takes them to get there."
>
> This statement says that some citizens are
> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
> about them. It tells me that more and more people
> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>
> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>
> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
> geolocalized data.
>
> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
> getting the information out there and get a social network
> catastrophe.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>
> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
> careful of the society we want too.
>
>
>
> --
> Karl Dubost
> Montréal, QC, Canada
> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[Drew Mcpherson]

That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.  Certainly it's
possible.  Personally, I'd attempt a preventive solution in terms of a
watchdog to keep government in line rather than clamping off the flow of
information.  It seems that the natural instinct to cut off information flow
in order to avoid atrocities actually results in allowing those atrocities
to occur undetected.  So if you're worried about how your information will
be used, I say turn up the volume on that information and catch the would-be
data abusers before they can get a foothold towards rising to power.

~Drew

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Heather Morrison" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:11 PM
To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
on2011 Census

> My two bits:
>
> As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form in  the
> past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my  concern
> about being forced to fill out this form.
>
> Some things to think about:
>
> The lastest census form gives the option to make your data available
> openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?  In
> the past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very
> optimistic person; I believe that the problems with climate change can  be
> solved, and that we can have peace on earth, and that we should  therefore
> get cracking and make these things happen.  However, it my  opinion it
> would be naive to assume that this will happen.
>
> Any information that I include on a census form to be released even in
> the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or
> ethnicity, could result in discrimination or even a death sentence for  my
> descendants.  There have been times when merely being identified as  a
> Jew, or a Hutu, put people on a death list.
>
> Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First Nations
> person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the
> influence of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial
> profiling is actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the
> Japanese people and put them in internment camps.
>
> It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have such
> confidence in our government - both current and future - that the
> possibility of our own government misusing such information as is
> collected via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be occurring  to
> people.  We are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own confidence  in this
> area is strong; but it is not 100%, and I would prefer that  our
> government only collect such information tied to individuals as it  really
> needs to govern the country and provide services to Canadians.
>
> best,
>
> Heather Morrison
> [hidden email]
>
> On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
>> not think there will be any gain into it if we
>> start by making binary comments about it.
>>
>>        "In the past, the Government of Canada
>>        received complaints about the long-form
>>        census from citizens who felt it was an
>>        intrusion of their privacy. The
>>        government does not think it is
>>        necessary for Canadians to provide
>>        Statistics Canada with the number of
>>        bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>>        the day they leave for work, or how long
>>        it takes them to get there."
>>
>> This statement says that some citizens are
>> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
>> about them. It tells me that more and more people
>> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>>
>> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
>> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>>
>> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
>> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
>> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
>> geolocalized data.
>>
>> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
>> getting the information out there and get a social network
>> catastrophe.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>>
>> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
>> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
>> careful of the society we want too.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Karl Dubost
>> Montréal, QC, Canada
>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

[Shawn Simister]

I'd go one step further and say that opting out of the census would do
next to nothing to protect you from genocide. Think of how many emails
you've sent over the past decade and what they say about you. Same goes
for telephone calls. Or if you use electronic payment like Interac or
credit cards, they can infer things like gender, ethnicity or even
religion with a decent amount of accuracy from your purchase history.
Personally, I'm more concerned about the threats of the 21st century
like flu pandemics and climate change than I am about repeating the
mistakes of the 20th century and to solve these problems we need good
quality open data.

Shawn

Drew Mcpherson wrote:

> That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.  Certainly it's
> possible.  Personally, I'd attempt a preventive solution in terms of a
> watchdog to keep government in line rather than clamping off the flow
> of information.  It seems that the natural instinct to cut off
> information flow in order to avoid atrocities actually results in
> allowing those atrocities to occur undetected.  So if you're worried
> about how your information will be used, I say turn up the volume on
> that information and catch the would-be data abusers before they can
> get a foothold towards rising to power.
>
> ~Drew
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Heather Morrison" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:11 PM
> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry -
> Statement on2011 Census
>
>> My two bits:
>>
>> As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form
>> in  the past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my  
>> concern about being forced to fill out this form.
>>
>> Some things to think about:
>>
>> The lastest census form gives the option to make your data available
>> openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?  
>> In the past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very
>> optimistic person; I believe that the problems with climate change
>> can  be solved, and that we can have peace on earth, and that we
>> should  therefore get cracking and make these things happen.  
>> However, it my  opinion it would be naive to assume that this will
>> happen.
>>
>> Any information that I include on a census form to be released even
>> in the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or
>> ethnicity, could result in discrimination or even a death sentence
>> for  my descendants.  There have been times when merely being
>> identified as  a Jew, or a Hutu, put people on a death list.
>>
>> Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First Nations
>> person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the
>> influence of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial
>> profiling is actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the
>> Japanese people and put them in internment camps.
>>
>> It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have such
>> confidence in our government - both current and future - that the
>> possibility of our own government misusing such information as is
>> collected via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be
>> occurring  to people.  We are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own
>> confidence  in this area is strong; but it is not 100%, and I would
>> prefer that  our government only collect such information tied to
>> individuals as it  really needs to govern the country and provide
>> services to Canadians.
>>
>> best,
>>
>> Heather Morrison
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
>>> not think there will be any gain into it if we
>>> start by making binary comments about it.
>>>
>>>        "In the past, the Government of Canada
>>>        received complaints about the long-form
>>>        census from citizens who felt it was an
>>>        intrusion of their privacy. The
>>>        government does not think it is
>>>        necessary for Canadians to provide
>>>        Statistics Canada with the number of
>>>        bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>>>        the day they leave for work, or how long
>>>        it takes them to get there."
>>>
>>> This statement says that some citizens are
>>> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
>>> about them. It tells me that more and more people
>>> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>>>
>>> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
>>> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>>>
>>> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
>>> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
>>> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
>>> geolocalized data.
>>>
>>> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
>>> getting the information out there and get a social network
>>> catastrophe.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>>>
>>> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
>>> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
>>> careful of the society we want too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Karl Dubost
>>> Montréal, QC, Canada
>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[Drew Mcpherson]

Also, with the way things are tending towards giving special privileges to
racial minorities it might actually be to one's benefit to be identified as
such.  I don't think there's any danger of a "hitler" rising to power in
Canada any time soon.

~Drew

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Shawn Simister" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:04 PM
To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
on2011 Census

> I'd go one step further and say that opting out of the census would do
> next to nothing to protect you from genocide. Think of how many emails
> you've sent over the past decade and what they say about you. Same goes
> for telephone calls. Or if you use electronic payment like Interac or
> credit cards, they can infer things like gender, ethnicity or even
> religion with a decent amount of accuracy from your purchase history.
> Personally, I'm more concerned about the threats of the 21st century like
> flu pandemics and climate change than I am about repeating the mistakes of
> the 20th century and to solve these problems we need good quality open
> data.
>
> Shawn
>
> Drew Mcpherson wrote:
>> That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.  Certainly it's
>> possible.  Personally, I'd attempt a preventive solution in terms of a
>> watchdog to keep government in line rather than clamping off the flow of
>> information.  It seems that the natural instinct to cut off information
>> flow in order to avoid atrocities actually results in allowing those
>> atrocities to occur undetected.  So if you're worried about how your
>> information will be used, I say turn up the volume on that information
>> and catch the would-be data abusers before they can get a foothold
>> towards rising to power.
>>
>> ~Drew
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Heather Morrison" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:11 PM
>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
>> on2011 Census
>>
>>> My two bits:
>>>
>>> As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form in
>>> the past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my
>>> concern about being forced to fill out this form.
>>>
>>> Some things to think about:
>>>
>>> The lastest census form gives the option to make your data available
>>> openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?  In
>>> the past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very
>>> optimistic person; I believe that the problems with climate change can
>>> be solved, and that we can have peace on earth, and that we should
>>> therefore get cracking and make these things happen.  However, it my
>>> opinion it would be naive to assume that this will happen.
>>>
>>> Any information that I include on a census form to be released even in
>>> the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or
>>> ethnicity, could result in discrimination or even a death sentence for
>>> my descendants.  There have been times when merely being identified as
>>> a Jew, or a Hutu, put people on a death list.
>>>
>>> Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First Nations
>>> person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the
>>> influence of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial
>>> profiling is actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the
>>> Japanese people and put them in internment camps.
>>>
>>> It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have such
>>> confidence in our government - both current and future - that the
>>> possibility of our own government misusing such information as is
>>> collected via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be occurring
>>> to people.  We are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own confidence  in
>>> this area is strong; but it is not 100%, and I would prefer that  our
>>> government only collect such information tied to individuals as it
>>> really needs to govern the country and provide services to Canadians.
>>>
>>> best,
>>>
>>> Heather Morrison
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>> On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
>>>> not think there will be any gain into it if we
>>>> start by making binary comments about it.
>>>>
>>>>        "In the past, the Government of Canada
>>>>        received complaints about the long-form
>>>>        census from citizens who felt it was an
>>>>        intrusion of their privacy. The
>>>>        government does not think it is
>>>>        necessary for Canadians to provide
>>>>        Statistics Canada with the number of
>>>>        bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>>>>        the day they leave for work, or how long
>>>>        it takes them to get there."
>>>>
>>>> This statement says that some citizens are
>>>> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
>>>> about them. It tells me that more and more people
>>>> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>>>>
>>>> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>>>>
>>>> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
>>>> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
>>>> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
>>>> geolocalized data.
>>>>
>>>> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
>>>> getting the information out there and get a social network
>>>> catastrophe.
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>>>>
>>>> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
>>>> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
>>>> careful of the society we want too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Karl Dubost
>>>> Montréal, QC, Canada
>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

[Michael Lenczner]

I'm going to suggest that we move off of this particular thread.  Hope
that's okay.  I don't think that we're looking for a discussion on
this matter.

Mike



On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Drew Mcpherson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Also, with the way things are tending towards giving special privileges to
> racial minorities it might actually be to one's benefit to be identified as
> such.  I don't think there's any danger of a "hitler" rising to power in
> Canada any time soon.
>
> ~Drew
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Shawn Simister" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:04 PM
> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
> on2011 Census
>
>> I'd go one step further and say that opting out of the census would do
>> next to nothing to protect you from genocide. Think of how many emails
>> you've sent over the past decade and what they say about you. Same goes for
>> telephone calls. Or if you use electronic payment like Interac or credit
>> cards, they can infer things like gender, ethnicity or even religion with a
>> decent amount of accuracy from your purchase history. Personally, I'm more
>> concerned about the threats of the 21st century like flu pandemics and
>> climate change than I am about repeating the mistakes of the 20th century
>> and to solve these problems we need good quality open data.
>>
>> Shawn
>>
>> Drew Mcpherson wrote:
>>>
>>> That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.  Certainly it's
>>> possible.  Personally, I'd attempt a preventive solution in terms of a
>>> watchdog to keep government in line rather than clamping off the flow of
>>> information.  It seems that the natural instinct to cut off information flow
>>> in order to avoid atrocities actually results in allowing those atrocities
>>> to occur undetected.  So if you're worried about how your information will
>>> be used, I say turn up the volume on that information and catch the would-be
>>> data abusers before they can get a foothold towards rising to power.
>>>
>>> ~Drew
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Heather Morrison" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:11 PM
>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
>>> on2011 Census
>>>
>>>> My two bits:
>>>>
>>>> As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form in
>>>> the past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my concern
>>>> about being forced to fill out this form.
>>>>
>>>> Some things to think about:
>>>>
>>>> The lastest census form gives the option to make your data available
>>>> openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?  In the
>>>> past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very optimistic
>>>> person; I believe that the problems with climate change can be solved, and
>>>> that we can have peace on earth, and that we should therefore get cracking
>>>> and make these things happen.  However, it my opinion it would be naive to
>>>> assume that this will happen.
>>>>
>>>> Any information that I include on a census form to be released even in
>>>> the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or ethnicity,
>>>> could result in discrimination or even a death sentence for my descendants.
>>>>  There have been times when merely being identified as a Jew, or a Hutu, put
>>>> people on a death list.
>>>>
>>>> Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First Nations
>>>> person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the influence
>>>> of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial profiling is
>>>> actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the Japanese people and
>>>> put them in internment camps.
>>>>
>>>> It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have such
>>>> confidence in our government - both current and future - that the
>>>> possibility of our own government misusing such information as is collected
>>>> via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be occurring to people.  We
>>>> are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own confidence  in this area is
>>>> strong; but it is not 100%, and I would prefer that  our government only
>>>> collect such information tied to individuals as it really needs to govern
>>>> the country and provide services to Canadians.
>>>>
>>>> best,
>>>>
>>>> Heather Morrison
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
>>>>> not think there will be any gain into it if we
>>>>> start by making binary comments about it.
>>>>>
>>>>>       "In the past, the Government of Canada
>>>>>       received complaints about the long-form
>>>>>       census from citizens who felt it was an
>>>>>       intrusion of their privacy. The
>>>>>       government does not think it is
>>>>>       necessary for Canadians to provide
>>>>>       Statistics Canada with the number of
>>>>>       bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>>>>>       the day they leave for work, or how long
>>>>>       it takes them to get there."
>>>>>
>>>>> This statement says that some citizens are
>>>>> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
>>>>> about them. It tells me that more and more people
>>>>> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>>>>>
>>>>> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
>>>>> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
>>>>> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
>>>>> geolocalized data.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
>>>>> getting the information out there and get a social network
>>>>> catastrophe.
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
>>>>> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
>>>>> careful of the society we want too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Karl Dubost
>>>>> Montréal, QC, Canada
>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

[catherine]

Agreed.

--
Catherine Roy
http://www.catherine-roy.net



On Tue, July 20, 2010 5:59 pm, Michael Lenczner wrote:

> I'm going to suggest that we move off of this particular thread.  Hope
> that's okay.  I don't think that we're looking for a discussion on
> this matter.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Drew Mcpherson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Also, with the way things are tending towards giving special privileges
>> to
>> racial minorities it might actually be to one's benefit to be identified
>> as
>> such.  I don't think there's any danger of a "hitler" rising to power in
>> Canada any time soon.
>>
>> ~Drew
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Shawn Simister" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:04 PM
>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
>> on2011 Census
>>
>>> I'd go one step further and say that opting out of the census would do
>>> next to nothing to protect you from genocide. Think of how many emails
>>> you've sent over the past decade and what they say about you. Same goes
>>> for
>>> telephone calls. Or if you use electronic payment like Interac or
>>> credit
>>> cards, they can infer things like gender, ethnicity or even religion
>>> with a
>>> decent amount of accuracy from your purchase history. Personally, I'm
>>> more
>>> concerned about the threats of the 21st century like flu pandemics and
>>> climate change than I am about repeating the mistakes of the 20th
>>> century
>>> and to solve these problems we need good quality open data.
>>>
>>> Shawn
>>>
>>> Drew Mcpherson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.  Certainly it's
>>>> possible.  Personally, I'd attempt a preventive solution in terms of a
>>>> watchdog to keep government in line rather than clamping off the flow
>>>> of
>>>> information.  It seems that the natural instinct to cut off
>>>> information flow
>>>> in order to avoid atrocities actually results in allowing those
>>>> atrocities
>>>> to occur undetected.  So if you're worried about how your information
>>>> will
>>>> be used, I say turn up the volume on that information and catch the
>>>> would-be
>>>> data abusers before they can get a foothold towards rising to power.
>>>>
>>>> ~Drew
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Heather Morrison" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:11 PM
>>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry -
>>>> Statement
>>>> on2011 Census
>>>>
>>>>> My two bits:
>>>>>
>>>>> As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form in
>>>>> the past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my
>>>>> concern
>>>>> about being forced to fill out this form.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some things to think about:
>>>>>
>>>>> The lastest census form gives the option to make your data available
>>>>> openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?
>>>>>  In the
>>>>> past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very
>>>>> optimistic
>>>>> person; I believe that the problems with climate change can be
>>>>> solved, and
>>>>> that we can have peace on earth, and that we should therefore get
>>>>> cracking
>>>>> and make these things happen.  However, it my opinion it would be
>>>>> naive to
>>>>> assume that this will happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any information that I include on a census form to be released even
>>>>> in
>>>>> the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or
>>>>> ethnicity,
>>>>> could result in discrimination or even a death sentence for my
>>>>> descendants.
>>>>>  There have been times when merely being identified as a Jew, or a
>>>>> Hutu, put
>>>>> people on a death list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First Nations
>>>>> person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the
>>>>> influence
>>>>> of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial profiling is
>>>>> actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the Japanese
>>>>> people and
>>>>> put them in internment camps.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have such
>>>>> confidence in our government - both current and future - that the
>>>>> possibility of our own government misusing such information as is
>>>>> collected
>>>>> via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be occurring to
>>>>> people.  We
>>>>> are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own confidence  in this area
>>>>> is
>>>>> strong; but it is not 100%, and I would prefer that  our government
>>>>> only
>>>>> collect such information tied to individuals as it really needs to
>>>>> govern
>>>>> the country and provide services to Canadians.
>>>>>
>>>>> best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Heather Morrison
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
>>>>>> not think there will be any gain into it if we
>>>>>> start by making binary comments about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       "In the past, the Government of Canada
>>>>>>       received complaints about the long-form
>>>>>>       census from citizens who felt it was an
>>>>>>       intrusion of their privacy. The
>>>>>>       government does not think it is
>>>>>>       necessary for Canadians to provide
>>>>>>       Statistics Canada with the number of
>>>>>>       bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>>>>>>       the day they leave for work, or how long
>>>>>>       it takes them to get there."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This statement says that some citizens are
>>>>>> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
>>>>>> about them. It tells me that more and more people
>>>>>> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
>>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
>>>>>> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
>>>>>> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
>>>>>> geolocalized data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
>>>>>> getting the information out there and get a social network
>>>>>> catastrophe.
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
>>>>>> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
>>>>>> careful of the society we want too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Karl Dubost
>>>>>> Montréal, QC, Canada
>>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

[Jennifer Bell]

Oh good. 

Personally, I would argue that the census debate has been off-topic.  There's a difference between a) pushing for access to information that the government has gathered and b) second-guessing what information the government should collect.  b is a much bigger topic, and a significantly more nebulous one. 

Of course, it's possible I only think this because I agree with Tony Clement -- the govt. can send me to jail if I don't tell them my race and the # of bedrooms in my home?  Icky-spooky! 

I understand there's a number of social scientists on the list who don't like the change, but perhaps there's a better space for this discussion.  If there isn't -- why not start one, get a facebook group going, etc. etc. etc.

Jennifer

--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement on2011 Census
To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 5:59 PM

I'm going to suggest that we move off of this particular thread.  Hope
that's okay.  I don't think that we're looking for a discussion on
this matter.

Mike



On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Drew Mcpherson <drew@...> wrote:

> Also, with the way things are tending towards giving special privileges to
> racial minorities it might actually be to one's benefit to be identified as
> such.  I don't think there's any danger of a "hitler" rising to power in
> Canada any time soon.
>
> ~Drew
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Shawn Simister" <shawn@...>
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:04 PM
> To: "civicaccess discuss" <civicaccess-discuss@...>
> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
> on2011 Census
>
>> I'd go one step further and say that opting out of the census would do
>> next to nothing to protect you from genocide. Think of how many emails
>> you've sent over the past decade and what they say about you. Same goes for
>> telephone calls. Or if you use electronic payment like Interac or credit
>> cards, they can infer things like gender, ethnicity or even religion with a
>> decent amount of accuracy from your purchase history. Personally, I'm more
>> concerned about the threats of the 21st century like flu pandemics and
>> climate change than I am about repeating the mistakes of the 20th century
>> and to solve these problems we need good quality open data.
>>
>> Shawn
>>
>> Drew Mcpherson wrote:
>>>
>>> That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.  Certainly it's
>>> possible.  Personally, I'd attempt a preventive solution in terms of a
>>> watchdog to keep government in line rather than clamping off the flow of
>>> information.  It seems that the natural instinct to cut off information flow
>>> in order to avoid atrocities actually results in allowing those atrocities
>>> to occur undetected.  So if you're worried about how your information will
>>> be used, I say turn up the volume on that information and catch the would-be
>>> data abusers before they can get a foothold towards rising to power.
>>>
>>> ~Drew
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Heather Morrison" <heatherm@...>
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:11 PM
>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <civicaccess-discuss@...>
>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
>>> on2011 Census
>>>
>>>> My two bits:
>>>>
>>>> As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form in
>>>> the past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my concern
>>>> about being forced to fill out this form.
>>>>
>>>> Some things to think about:
>>>>
>>>> The lastest census form gives the option to make your data available
>>>> openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?  In the
>>>> past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very optimistic
>>>> person; I believe that the problems with climate change can be solved, and
>>>> that we can have peace on earth, and that we should therefore get cracking
>>>> and make these things happen.  However, it my opinion it would be naive to
>>>> assume that this will happen.
>>>>
>>>> Any information that I include on a census form to be released even in
>>>> the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or ethnicity,
>>>> could result in discrimination or even a death sentence for my descendants.
>>>>  There have been times when merely being identified as a Jew, or a Hutu, put
>>>> people on a death list.
>>>>
>>>> Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First Nations
>>>> person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the influence
>>>> of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial profiling is
>>>> actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the Japanese people and
>>>> put them in internment camps.
>>>>
>>>> It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have such
>>>> confidence in our government - both current and future - that the
>>>> possibility of our own government misusing such information as is collected
>>>> via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be occurring to people.  We
>>>> are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own confidence  in this area is
>>>> strong; but it is not 100%, and I would prefer that  our government only
>>>> collect such information tied to individuals as it really needs to govern
>>>> the country and provide services to Canadians.
>>>>
>>>> best,
>>>>
>>>> Heather Morrison
>>>> hgmorris@...
>>>>
>>>> On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
>>>>> not think there will be any gain into it if we
>>>>> start by making binary comments about it.
>>>>>
>>>>>       "In the past, the Government of Canada
>>>>>       received complaints about the long-form
>>>>>       census from citizens who felt it was an
>>>>>       intrusion of their privacy. The
>>>>>       government does not think it is
>>>>>       necessary for Canadians to provide
>>>>>       Statistics Canada with the number of
>>>>>       bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>>>>>       the day they leave for work, or how long
>>>>>       it takes them to get there."
>>>>>
>>>>> This statement says that some citizens are
>>>>> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
>>>>> about them. It tells me that more and more people
>>>>> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>>>>>
>>>>> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
>>>>> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
>>>>> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
>>>>> geolocalized data.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
>>>>> getting the information out there and get a social network
>>>>> catastrophe.
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
>>>>> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
>>>>> careful of the society we want too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Karl Dubost
>>>>> Montréal, QC, Canada
>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> CivicAccess-discuss@...
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
CivicAccess-discuss@...
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[catherine]

You are kidding, right ?

The "census debate" has hardly been off-topic, even discussions on privacy
have not been off-topic. But discussions on genocide, etc., while I
understand and respect the concerns voiced (after all, as a person with a
disability, I am all too aware of our own struggles with these issues), I
feel they have veered dangerously close to getting a bit too emotional to
be very constructive.

Please refrain from being so flippant. This list could well do without
this sort of attitude.



--
Catherine Roy
http://www.catherine-roy.net



On Tue, July 20, 2010 6:47 pm, Jennifer Bell wrote:

> Oh good. 
>
> Personally, I would argue that the census debate has been off-topic. 
> There's a difference between a) pushing for access to information that the
> government has gathered and b) second-guessing what information the
> government should collect.  b is a much bigger topic, and a significantly
> more nebulous one. 
>
> Of course, it's possible I only think this because I agree with Tony
> Clement -- the govt. can send me to jail if I don't tell them my race and
> the # of bedrooms in my home?  Icky-spooky! 
>
> I understand there's a number of social scientists on the list who don't
> like the change, but perhaps there's a better space for this discussion. 
> If there isn't -- why not start one, get a facebook group going, etc. etc.
> etc.
>
> Jennifer
>
> --- On Tue, 7/20/10, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> From: Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
> on2011 Census
> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
> Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 5:59 PM
>
> I'm going to suggest that we move off of this particular thread.  Hope
> that's okay.  I don't think that we're looking for a discussion on
> this matter.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Drew Mcpherson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Also, with the way things are tending towards giving special privileges
>> to
>> racial minorities it might actually be to one's benefit to be identified
>> as
>> such.  I don't think there's any danger of a "hitler" rising to power in
>> Canada any time soon.
>>
>> ~Drew
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Shawn Simister" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:04 PM
>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
>> on2011 Census
>>
>>> I'd go one step further and say that opting out of the census would do
>>> next to nothing to protect you from genocide. Think of how many emails
>>> you've sent over the past decade and what they say about you. Same goes
>>> for
>>> telephone calls. Or if you use electronic payment like Interac or
>>> credit
>>> cards, they can infer things like gender, ethnicity or even religion
>>> with a
>>> decent amount of accuracy from your purchase history. Personally, I'm
>>> more
>>> concerned about the threats of the 21st century like flu pandemics and
>>> climate change than I am about repeating the mistakes of the 20th
>>> century
>>> and to solve these problems we need good quality open data.
>>>
>>> Shawn
>>>
>>> Drew Mcpherson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.  Certainly it's
>>>> possible.  Personally, I'd attempt a preventive solution in terms of a
>>>> watchdog to keep government in line rather than clamping off the flow
>>>> of
>>>> information.  It seems that the natural instinct to cut off
>>>> information flow
>>>> in order to avoid atrocities actually results in allowing those
>>>> atrocities
>>>> to occur undetected.  So if you're worried about how your information
>>>> will
>>>> be used, I say turn up the volume on that information and catch the
>>>> would-be
>>>> data abusers before they can get a foothold towards rising to power.
>>>>
>>>> ~Drew
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Heather Morrison" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:11 PM
>>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry -
>>>> Statement
>>>> on2011 Census
>>>>
>>>>> My two bits:
>>>>>
>>>>> As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form in
>>>>> the past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my
>>>>> concern
>>>>> about being forced to fill out this form.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some things to think about:
>>>>>
>>>>> The lastest census form gives the option to make your data available
>>>>> openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?
>>>>>  In the
>>>>> past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very
>>>>> optimistic
>>>>> person; I believe that the problems with climate change can be
>>>>> solved, and
>>>>> that we can have peace on earth, and that we should therefore get
>>>>> cracking
>>>>> and make these things happen.  However, it my opinion it would be
>>>>> naive to
>>>>> assume that this will happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any information that I include on a census form to be released even
>>>>> in
>>>>> the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or
>>>>> ethnicity,
>>>>> could result in discrimination or even a death sentence for my
>>>>> descendants.
>>>>>  There have been times when merely being identified as a Jew, or a
>>>>> Hutu, put
>>>>> people on a death list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First Nations
>>>>> person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the
>>>>> influence
>>>>> of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial profiling is
>>>>> actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the Japanese
>>>>> people and
>>>>> put them in internment camps.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have such
>>>>> confidence in our government - both current and future - that the
>>>>> possibility of our own government misusing such information as is
>>>>> collected
>>>>> via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be occurring to
>>>>> people.  We
>>>>> are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own confidence  in this area
>>>>> is
>>>>> strong; but it is not 100%, and I would prefer that  our government
>>>>> only
>>>>> collect such information tied to individuals as it really needs to
>>>>> govern
>>>>> the country and provide services to Canadians.
>>>>>
>>>>> best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Heather Morrison
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
>>>>>> not think there will be any gain into it if we
>>>>>> start by making binary comments about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       "In the past, the Government of Canada
>>>>>>       received complaints about the long-form
>>>>>>       census from citizens who felt it was an
>>>>>>       intrusion of their privacy. The
>>>>>>       government does not think it is
>>>>>>       necessary for Canadians to provide
>>>>>>       Statistics Canada with the number of
>>>>>>       bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>>>>>>       the day they leave for work, or how long
>>>>>>       it takes them to get there."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This statement says that some citizens are
>>>>>> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
>>>>>> about them. It tells me that more and more people
>>>>>> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
>>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
>>>>>> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
>>>>>> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
>>>>>> geolocalized data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
>>>>>> getting the information out there and get a social network
>>>>>> catastrophe.
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
>>>>>> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
>>>>>> careful of the society we want too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Karl Dubost
>>>>>> Montréal, QC, Canada
>>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[Michael Lenczner]

First note is that I think there is a difference of understanding of
what "off-topic" means.

With that said, I think that Jennifer has a point and the only tone
that I think could be commented on would be the characterization of
citizens working to reverse this decision as "second-guessing".  Civic
Access is a citizen-initiative and I don't think that anyone here
would be comfortable with someone characterizing our work as merely
"second-guessing" government policy.

I think the broader question she's raising is something that would be
useful to have a discussion about.  Is it part of open government to
argue that the government should collect certain data (or more
accurately in this case to continue to collect certain data)?  And is
CivicAccess the space to discuss this if we decided that it is not,
strictly speaking, part of open government or access to gov info?
Personally, I think that CA is a place to do that, but the issue
doesn't appear explicitly in our description or mission and I think
it's certainly an interesting thing to question.

However, instead of jumping into that question right now, I think it
would be good to let this emotionally charged discussion of the census
(!!) die down a bit. :)

I think everyone understands now that not everyone on this list is for
keeping the long-form mandatory.  But the large majority of regular
contributors seem to be in support of it.

Let's remember that not everyone on this list is not in agreement on
the topic.  CivicAccess is not an ideal primary organizing place for
mobilizing against this decision by the government and there is very
healthy mobilization taking place elsewhere.  Also the issue has
partisan qualities to it that I think that CA has mainly avoided so
far and is better off without jumping into.

I think it is relevant to continue to send news about the developments
of the long-form to this list.  It's a major issue in our space and
the people who are already members on the list are interested in it.
Just as long as we don't assume that everyone here feels the same way
about it.

Mike


On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 7:12 PM, catherine <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You are kidding, right ?
>
> The "census debate" has hardly been off-topic, even discussions on privacy
> have not been off-topic. But discussions on genocide, etc., while I
> understand and respect the concerns voiced (after all, as a person with a
> disability, I am all too aware of our own struggles with these issues), I
> feel they have veered dangerously close to getting a bit too emotional to
> be very constructive.
>
> Please refrain from being so flippant. This list could well do without
> this sort of attitude.
>
>
>
> --
> Catherine Roy
> http://www.catherine-roy.net
>
>
>
> On Tue, July 20, 2010 6:47 pm, Jennifer Bell wrote:
>> Oh good.
>>
>> Personally, I would argue that the census debate has been off-topic.
>> There's a difference between a) pushing for access to information that the
>> government has gathered and b) second-guessing what information the
>> government should collect.  b is a much bigger topic, and a significantly
>> more nebulous one.
>>
>> Of course, it's possible I only think this because I agree with Tony
>> Clement -- the govt. can send me to jail if I don't tell them my race and
>> the # of bedrooms in my home?  Icky-spooky!
>>
>> I understand there's a number of social scientists on the list who don't
>> like the change, but perhaps there's a better space for this discussion.
>> If there isn't -- why not start one, get a facebook group going, etc. etc.
>> etc.
>>
>> Jennifer
>>
>> --- On Tue, 7/20/10, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> From: Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
>> on2011 Census
>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>> Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 5:59 PM
>>
>> I'm going to suggest that we move off of this particular thread.  Hope
>> that's okay.  I don't think that we're looking for a discussion on
>> this matter.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Drew Mcpherson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Also, with the way things are tending towards giving special privileges
>>> to
>>> racial minorities it might actually be to one's benefit to be identified
>>> as
>>> such.  I don't think there's any danger of a "hitler" rising to power in
>>> Canada any time soon.
>>>
>>> ~Drew
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Shawn Simister" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:04 PM
>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
>>> on2011 Census
>>>
>>>> I'd go one step further and say that opting out of the census would do
>>>> next to nothing to protect you from genocide. Think of how many emails
>>>> you've sent over the past decade and what they say about you. Same goes
>>>> for
>>>> telephone calls. Or if you use electronic payment like Interac or
>>>> credit
>>>> cards, they can infer things like gender, ethnicity or even religion
>>>> with a
>>>> decent amount of accuracy from your purchase history. Personally, I'm
>>>> more
>>>> concerned about the threats of the 21st century like flu pandemics and
>>>> climate change than I am about repeating the mistakes of the 20th
>>>> century
>>>> and to solve these problems we need good quality open data.
>>>>
>>>> Shawn
>>>>
>>>> Drew Mcpherson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.  Certainly it's
>>>>> possible.  Personally, I'd attempt a preventive solution in terms of a
>>>>> watchdog to keep government in line rather than clamping off the flow
>>>>> of
>>>>> information.  It seems that the natural instinct to cut off
>>>>> information flow
>>>>> in order to avoid atrocities actually results in allowing those
>>>>> atrocities
>>>>> to occur undetected.  So if you're worried about how your information
>>>>> will
>>>>> be used, I say turn up the volume on that information and catch the
>>>>> would-be
>>>>> data abusers before they can get a foothold towards rising to power.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~Drew
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Heather Morrison" <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:11 PM
>>>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry -
>>>>> Statement
>>>>> on2011 Census
>>>>>
>>>>>> My two bits:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form in
>>>>>> the past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my
>>>>>> concern
>>>>>> about being forced to fill out this form.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some things to think about:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The lastest census form gives the option to make your data available
>>>>>> openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?
>>>>>>  In the
>>>>>> past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very
>>>>>> optimistic
>>>>>> person; I believe that the problems with climate change can be
>>>>>> solved, and
>>>>>> that we can have peace on earth, and that we should therefore get
>>>>>> cracking
>>>>>> and make these things happen.  However, it my opinion it would be
>>>>>> naive to
>>>>>> assume that this will happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any information that I include on a census form to be released even
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or
>>>>>> ethnicity,
>>>>>> could result in discrimination or even a death sentence for my
>>>>>> descendants.
>>>>>>  There have been times when merely being identified as a Jew, or a
>>>>>> Hutu, put
>>>>>> people on a death list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First Nations
>>>>>> person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the
>>>>>> influence
>>>>>> of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial profiling is
>>>>>> actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the Japanese
>>>>>> people and
>>>>>> put them in internment camps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have such
>>>>>> confidence in our government - both current and future - that the
>>>>>> possibility of our own government misusing such information as is
>>>>>> collected
>>>>>> via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be occurring to
>>>>>> people.  We
>>>>>> are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own confidence  in this area
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> strong; but it is not 100%, and I would prefer that  our government
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> collect such information tied to individuals as it really needs to
>>>>>> govern
>>>>>> the country and provide services to Canadians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Heather Morrison
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
>>>>>>> not think there will be any gain into it if we
>>>>>>> start by making binary comments about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "In the past, the Government of Canada
>>>>>>>       received complaints about the long-form
>>>>>>>       census from citizens who felt it was an
>>>>>>>       intrusion of their privacy. The
>>>>>>>       government does not think it is
>>>>>>>       necessary for Canadians to provide
>>>>>>>       Statistics Canada with the number of
>>>>>>>       bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>>>>>>>       the day they leave for work, or how long
>>>>>>>       it takes them to get there."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This statement says that some citizens are
>>>>>>> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
>>>>>>> about them. It tells me that more and more people
>>>>>>> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
>>>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
>>>>>>> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
>>>>>>> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
>>>>>>> geolocalized data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
>>>>>>> getting the information out there and get a social network
>>>>>>> catastrophe.
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
>>>>>>> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
>>>>>>> careful of the society we want too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Karl Dubost
>>>>>>> Montréal, QC, Canada
>>>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

[catherine]

Sorry but I was quite offended with the tone of jennifer's email;
regardless of the points she may have had, it was flippant and
disrespectful with regards to other's concerns. All emails on this subject
were courteous until now. If this is the kind of atmosphere that CA
encourages, then I have better things to do with my time.

--
Catherine Roy
http://www.catherine-roy.net



On Tue, July 20, 2010 7:34 pm, Michael Lenczner wrote:

> First note is that I think there is a difference of understanding of
> what "off-topic" means.
>
> With that said, I think that Jennifer has a point and the only tone
> that I think could be commented on would be the characterization of
> citizens working to reverse this decision as "second-guessing".  Civic
> Access is a citizen-initiative and I don't think that anyone here
> would be comfortable with someone characterizing our work as merely
> "second-guessing" government policy.
>
> I think the broader question she's raising is something that would be
> useful to have a discussion about.  Is it part of open government to
> argue that the government should collect certain data (or more
> accurately in this case to continue to collect certain data)?  And is
> CivicAccess the space to discuss this if we decided that it is not,
> strictly speaking, part of open government or access to gov info?
> Personally, I think that CA is a place to do that, but the issue
> doesn't appear explicitly in our description or mission and I think
> it's certainly an interesting thing to question.
>
> However, instead of jumping into that question right now, I think it
> would be good to let this emotionally charged discussion of the census
> (!!) die down a bit. :)
>
> I think everyone understands now that not everyone on this list is for
> keeping the long-form mandatory.  But the large majority of regular
> contributors seem to be in support of it.
>
> Let's remember that not everyone on this list is not in agreement on
> the topic.  CivicAccess is not an ideal primary organizing place for
> mobilizing against this decision by the government and there is very
> healthy mobilization taking place elsewhere.  Also the issue has
> partisan qualities to it that I think that CA has mainly avoided so
> far and is better off without jumping into.
>
> I think it is relevant to continue to send news about the developments
> of the long-form to this list.  It's a major issue in our space and
> the people who are already members on the list are interested in it.
> Just as long as we don't assume that everyone here feels the same way
> about it.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 7:12 PM, catherine <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> You are kidding, right ?
>>
>> The "census debate" has hardly been off-topic, even discussions on
>> privacy
>> have not been off-topic. But discussions on genocide, etc., while I
>> understand and respect the concerns voiced (after all, as a person with
>> a
>> disability, I am all too aware of our own struggles with these issues),
>> I
>> feel they have veered dangerously close to getting a bit too emotional
>> to
>> be very constructive.
>>
>> Please refrain from being so flippant. This list could well do without
>> this sort of attitude.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Catherine Roy
>> http://www.catherine-roy.net
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, July 20, 2010 6:47 pm, Jennifer Bell wrote:
>>> Oh good.
>>>
>>> Personally, I would argue that the census debate has been off-topic.
>>> There's a difference between a) pushing for access to information that
>>> the
>>> government has gathered and b) second-guessing what information the
>>> government should collect.  b is a much bigger topic, and a
>>> significantly
>>> more nebulous one.
>>>
>>> Of course, it's possible I only think this because I agree with Tony
>>> Clement -- the govt. can send me to jail if I don't tell them my race
>>> and
>>> the # of bedrooms in my home?  Icky-spooky!
>>>
>>> I understand there's a number of social scientists on the list who
>>> don't
>>> like the change, but perhaps there's a better space for this
>>> discussion.
>>> If there isn't -- why not start one, get a facebook group going, etc.
>>> etc.
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> Jennifer
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 7/20/10, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry -
>>> Statement
>>> on2011 Census
>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>>> Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 5:59 PM
>>>
>>> I'm going to suggest that we move off of this particular thread.  Hope
>>> that's okay.  I don't think that we're looking for a discussion on
>>> this matter.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Drew Mcpherson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Also, with the way things are tending towards giving special
>>>> privileges
>>>> to
>>>> racial minorities it might actually be to one's benefit to be
>>>> identified
>>>> as
>>>> such.  I don't think there's any danger of a "hitler" rising to power
>>>> in
>>>> Canada any time soon.
>>>>
>>>> ~Drew
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Shawn Simister" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:04 PM
>>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry -
>>>> Statement
>>>> on2011 Census
>>>>
>>>>> I'd go one step further and say that opting out of the census would
>>>>> do
>>>>> next to nothing to protect you from genocide. Think of how many
>>>>> emails
>>>>> you've sent over the past decade and what they say about you. Same
>>>>> goes
>>>>> for
>>>>> telephone calls. Or if you use electronic payment like Interac or
>>>>> credit
>>>>> cards, they can infer things like gender, ethnicity or even religion
>>>>> with a
>>>>> decent amount of accuracy from your purchase history. Personally, I'm
>>>>> more
>>>>> concerned about the threats of the 21st century like flu pandemics
>>>>> and
>>>>> climate change than I am about repeating the mistakes of the 20th
>>>>> century
>>>>> and to solve these problems we need good quality open data.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shawn
>>>>>
>>>>> Drew Mcpherson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.  Certainly
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>> possible.  Personally, I'd attempt a preventive solution in terms of
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> watchdog to keep government in line rather than clamping off the
>>>>>> flow
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> information.  It seems that the natural instinct to cut off
>>>>>> information flow
>>>>>> in order to avoid atrocities actually results in allowing those
>>>>>> atrocities
>>>>>> to occur undetected.  So if you're worried about how your
>>>>>> information
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> be used, I say turn up the volume on that information and catch the
>>>>>> would-be
>>>>>> data abusers before they can get a foothold towards rising to power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~Drew
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> From: "Heather Morrison" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:11 PM
>>>>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry -
>>>>>> Statement
>>>>>> on2011 Census
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My two bits:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my
>>>>>>> concern
>>>>>>> about being forced to fill out this form.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some things to think about:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The lastest census form gives the option to make your data
>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>> openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?
>>>>>>>  In the
>>>>>>> past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very
>>>>>>> optimistic
>>>>>>> person; I believe that the problems with climate change can be
>>>>>>> solved, and
>>>>>>> that we can have peace on earth, and that we should therefore get
>>>>>>> cracking
>>>>>>> and make these things happen.  However, it my opinion it would be
>>>>>>> naive to
>>>>>>> assume that this will happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any information that I include on a census form to be released even
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or
>>>>>>> ethnicity,
>>>>>>> could result in discrimination or even a death sentence for my
>>>>>>> descendants.
>>>>>>>  There have been times when merely being identified as a Jew, or a
>>>>>>> Hutu, put
>>>>>>> people on a death list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First
>>>>>>> Nations
>>>>>>> person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the
>>>>>>> influence
>>>>>>> of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial profiling
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the Japanese
>>>>>>> people and
>>>>>>> put them in internment camps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> confidence in our government - both current and future - that the
>>>>>>> possibility of our own government misusing such information as is
>>>>>>> collected
>>>>>>> via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be occurring to
>>>>>>> people.  We
>>>>>>> are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own confidence  in this area
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> strong; but it is not 100%, and I would prefer that  our government
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> collect such information tied to individuals as it really needs to
>>>>>>> govern
>>>>>>> the country and provide services to Canadians.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Heather Morrison
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
>>>>>>>> not think there will be any gain into it if we
>>>>>>>> start by making binary comments about it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       "In the past, the Government of Canada
>>>>>>>>       received complaints about the long-form
>>>>>>>>       census from citizens who felt it was an
>>>>>>>>       intrusion of their privacy. The
>>>>>>>>       government does not think it is
>>>>>>>>       necessary for Canadians to provide
>>>>>>>>       Statistics Canada with the number of
>>>>>>>>       bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>>>>>>>>       the day they leave for work, or how long
>>>>>>>>       it takes them to get there."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This statement says that some citizens are
>>>>>>>> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
>>>>>>>> about them. It tells me that more and more people
>>>>>>>> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
>>>>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
>>>>>>>> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
>>>>>>>> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
>>>>>>>> geolocalized data.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
>>>>>>>> getting the information out there and get a social network
>>>>>>>> catastrophe.
>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
>>>>>>>> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
>>>>>>>> careful of the society we want too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Karl Dubost
>>>>>>>> Montréal, QC, Canada
>>>>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

[Jennifer Bell]

Thanks Mike!  I'm sorry to have caused offense.  Please swap out 'challenge', 'debate', or 'discuss' for 'second-guess' in my post.  I was typing with an 8-week-old on one arm, so I might not have chosen my words as carefully as I should have.

I was actually trying to be constructive in suggesting a facebook group for getting like-minded people together to oppose the census changes.  It did wonders for Citizens Against Parliamentary Prorougue, not to mention the anti-digital copyright initiative.  Sorry if you've done this already in a thread I haven't read yet.  (I'm behind on my email).

Jennifer

--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Michael Lenczner <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement on2011 Census
To: "civicaccess discuss" <[hidden email]>
Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 7:34 PM

First note is that I think there is a difference of understanding of
what "off-topic" means.

With that said, I think that Jennifer has a point and the only tone
that I think could be commented on would be the characterization of
citizens working to reverse this decision as "second-guessing".  Civic
Access is a citizen-initiative and I don't think that anyone here
would be comfortable with someone characterizing our work as merely
"second-guessing" government policy.

I think the broader question she's raising is something that would be
useful to have a discussion about.  Is it part of open government to
argue that the government should collect certain data (or more
accurately in this case to continue to collect certain data)?  And is
CivicAccess the space to discuss this if we decided that it is not,
strictly speaking, part of open government or access to gov info?
Personally, I think that CA is a place to do that, but the issue
doesn't appear explicitly in our description or mission and I think
it's certainly an interesting thing to question.

However, instead of jumping into that question right now, I think it
would be good to let this emotionally charged discussion of the census
(!!) die down a bit. :)

I think everyone understands now that not everyone on this list is for
keeping the long-form mandatory.  But the large majority of regular
contributors seem to be in support of it.

Let's remember that not everyone on this list is not in agreement on
the topic.  CivicAccess is not an ideal primary organizing place for
mobilizing against this decision by the government and there is very
healthy mobilization taking place elsewhere.  Also the issue has
partisan qualities to it that I think that CA has mainly avoided so
far and is better off without jumping into.

I think it is relevant to continue to send news about the developments
of the long-form to this list.  It's a major issue in our space and
the people who are already members on the list are interested in it.
Just as long as we don't assume that everyone here feels the same way
about it.

Mike


On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 7:12 PM, catherine <ecrire@...> wrote:

> You are kidding, right ?
>
> The "census debate" has hardly been off-topic, even discussions on privacy
> have not been off-topic. But discussions on genocide, etc., while I
> understand and respect the concerns voiced (after all, as a person with a
> disability, I am all too aware of our own struggles with these issues), I
> feel they have veered dangerously close to getting a bit too emotional to
> be very constructive.
>
> Please refrain from being so flippant. This list could well do without
> this sort of attitude.
>
>
>
> --
> Catherine Roy
> http://www.catherine-roy.net
>
>
>
> On Tue, July 20, 2010 6:47 pm, Jennifer Bell wrote:
>> Oh good.
>>
>> Personally, I would argue that the census debate has been off-topic.
>> There's a difference between a) pushing for access to information that the
>> government has gathered and b) second-guessing what information the
>> government should collect.  b is a much bigger topic, and a significantly
>> more nebulous one.
>>
>> Of course, it's possible I only think this because I agree with Tony
>> Clement -- the govt. can send me to jail if I don't tell them my race and
>> the # of bedrooms in my home?  Icky-spooky!
>>
>> I understand there's a number of social scientists on the list who don't
>> like the change, but perhaps there's a better space for this discussion.
>> If there isn't -- why not start one, get a facebook group going, etc. etc.
>> etc.
>>
>> Jennifer
>>
>> --- On Tue, 7/20/10, Michael Lenczner <mlenczner@...> wrote:
>>
>> From: Michael Lenczner <mlenczner@...>
>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
>> on2011 Census
>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <civicaccess-discuss@...>
>> Received: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 5:59 PM
>>
>> I'm going to suggest that we move off of this particular thread.  Hope
>> that's okay.  I don't think that we're looking for a discussion on
>> this matter.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Drew Mcpherson <drew@...> wrote:
>>> Also, with the way things are tending towards giving special privileges
>>> to
>>> racial minorities it might actually be to one's benefit to be identified
>>> as
>>> such.  I don't think there's any danger of a "hitler" rising to power in
>>> Canada any time soon.
>>>
>>> ~Drew
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Shawn Simister" <shawn@...>
>>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:04 PM
>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <civicaccess-discuss@...>
>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry - Statement
>>> on2011 Census
>>>
>>>> I'd go one step further and say that opting out of the census would do
>>>> next to nothing to protect you from genocide. Think of how many emails
>>>> you've sent over the past decade and what they say about you. Same goes
>>>> for
>>>> telephone calls. Or if you use electronic payment like Interac or
>>>> credit
>>>> cards, they can infer things like gender, ethnicity or even religion
>>>> with a
>>>> decent amount of accuracy from your purchase history. Personally, I'm
>>>> more
>>>> concerned about the threats of the 21st century like flu pandemics and
>>>> climate change than I am about repeating the mistakes of the 20th
>>>> century
>>>> and to solve these problems we need good quality open data.
>>>>
>>>> Shawn
>>>>
>>>> Drew Mcpherson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.  Certainly it's
>>>>> possible.  Personally, I'd attempt a preventive solution in terms of a
>>>>> watchdog to keep government in line rather than clamping off the flow
>>>>> of
>>>>> information.  It seems that the natural instinct to cut off
>>>>> information flow
>>>>> in order to avoid atrocities actually results in allowing those
>>>>> atrocities
>>>>> to occur undetected.  So if you're worried about how your information
>>>>> will
>>>>> be used, I say turn up the volume on that information and catch the
>>>>> would-be
>>>>> data abusers before they can get a foothold towards rising to power.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~Drew
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Heather Morrison" <heatherm@...>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 7:11 PM
>>>>> To: "civicaccess discuss" <civicaccess-discuss@...>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Fwd: Minister of Industry -
>>>>> Statement
>>>>> on2011 Census
>>>>>
>>>>>> My two bits:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I recall, I was one of those selected to fill out the long form in
>>>>>> the past, and I certainly expressed very strongly at the time my
>>>>>> concern
>>>>>> about being forced to fill out this form.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some things to think about:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The lastest census form gives the option to make your data available
>>>>>> openly, albeit long after your death.  What bothers me about this?
>>>>>>  In the
>>>>>> past century, we have seen a number of genocides.  I am a very
>>>>>> optimistic
>>>>>> person; I believe that the problems with climate change can be
>>>>>> solved, and
>>>>>> that we can have peace on earth, and that we should therefore get
>>>>>> cracking
>>>>>> and make these things happen.  However, it my opinion it would be
>>>>>> naive to
>>>>>> assume that this will happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any information that I include on a census form to be released even
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the distant future, particularly along the lines of religion or
>>>>>> ethnicity,
>>>>>> could result in discrimination or even a death sentence for my
>>>>>> descendants.
>>>>>>  There have been times when merely being identified as a Jew, or a
>>>>>> Hutu, put
>>>>>> people on a death list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even here in Canada, there have been times when being a First Nations
>>>>>> person meant being sent to a residential school to eliminate the
>>>>>> influence
>>>>>> of your culture.  Today, in the post-9/11 world, racial profiling is
>>>>>> actively practiced.  During WWII, we rounded up all the Japanese
>>>>>> people and
>>>>>> put them in internment camps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is interesting to me that so many of my fellow Canadians have such
>>>>>> confidence in our government - both current and future - that the
>>>>>> possibility of our own government misusing such information as is
>>>>>> collected
>>>>>> via the long form of the census doesn't seem to be occurring to
>>>>>> people.  We
>>>>>> are fortunate indeed in Canada, and my own confidence  in this area
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> strong; but it is not 100%, and I would prefer that  our government
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> collect such information tied to individuals as it really needs to
>>>>>> govern
>>>>>> the country and provide services to Canadians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Heather Morrison
>>>>>> hgmorris@...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18-Jul-10, at 3:54 AM, Karl Dubost wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> this comes to an interesting discussion. I do
>>>>>>> not think there will be any gain into it if we
>>>>>>> start by making binary comments about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       "In the past, the Government of Canada
>>>>>>>       received complaints about the long-form
>>>>>>>       census from citizens who felt it was an
>>>>>>>       intrusion of their privacy. The
>>>>>>>       government does not think it is
>>>>>>>       necessary for Canadians to provide
>>>>>>>       Statistics Canada with the number of
>>>>>>>       bedrooms in their home, or what time of
>>>>>>>       the day they leave for work, or how long
>>>>>>>       it takes them to get there."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This statement says that some citizens are
>>>>>>> uncomfortable with the data which are collected
>>>>>>> about them. It tells me that more and more people
>>>>>>> are aware of privacy matters. And that is good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is good specifically in the context of networks.
>>>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/28/karl-dubost-privacy-ws
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sharing your information means that you have to know how
>>>>>>> it will be used and for which purpose. Specifically when
>>>>>>> this information is highly connected to personnalized and
>>>>>>> geolocalized data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the networked world, it just takes *one* mistake for
>>>>>>> getting the information out there and get a social network
>>>>>>> catastrophe.
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes these data are definitely useful and yes it is cool to
>>>>>>> work with them for plenty of purpose. But we have to be
>>>>>>> careful of the society we want too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Karl Dubost
>>>>>>> Montréal, QC, Canada
>>>>>>> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
>> CivicAccess-discuss@...
>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
> CivicAccess-discuss@...
> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss
>

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