FW: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

[michael gurstein]

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <A href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target=_blank value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <A href="tel:[phone]" target=_blank value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

[James McKinney-2]

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <a href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target="_blank" value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank" value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[David Eaves]

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <a href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target="_blank" value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank" value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[michael gurstein]

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <A href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target=_blank value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <A href="tel:[phone]" target=_blank value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[David Eaves]

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <a href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target="_blank" value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank" value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[michael gurstein]

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <A href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target=_blank value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <A href="tel:[phone]" target=_blank value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[James McKinney-2]

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <a href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target="_blank" value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank" value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[James McKinney-2]

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <a href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target="_blank" value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank" value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[michael gurstein]

James,

 

I happen to think that there is nothing less civil or more destructive of civil discourse than deliberately and for effect misquoting or quoting out of context as below (and not once but twice).  Those are the tactics of Fox News and their eco-system.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James McKinney
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <A href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target=_blank value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <A href="tel:[phone]" target=_blank value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[James McKinney-2]

I also think we should rise above tit-for-tat.

On 2012-06-17, at 11:11 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

James,

 

I happen to think that there is nothing less civil or more destructive of civil discourse than deliberately and for effect misquoting or quoting out of context as below (and not once but twice).  Those are the tactics of Fox News and their eco-system.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James McKinney
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <a href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target="_blank" value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank" value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[Michael Lenczner-2]

Regarding the question of whether open data increases inequalities - I think that we've had a full airing of views, a good discussion, and now we have a good sense of what each other think. I don't think we need to necessarily get into a debate about it anytime someone mentions it on the list. It's not like this mailing list is an public record of a shared opinion or agreed-upon resolution. Therefore I would suggest that no response is necessary if a person is repeats the same comment without developing their argument further.

Cheers,

Mike

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

I also think we should rise above tit-for-tat.

On 2012-06-17, at 11:11 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

James,

 

I happen to think that there is nothing less civil or more destructive of civil discourse than deliberately and for effect misquoting or quoting out of context as below (and not once but twice).  Those are the tactics of Fox News and their eco-system.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James McKinney
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <a href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" value="[phone]" target="_blank">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[michael gurstein]

Hi Michael,

 

I don't want to start another round of this but I think it is important/useful that my position on this be very clear.

 

If your comments are meant to refer to mine please be aware that I don't believe that I have ever said that "open data increases inequalities"... What I've said is that under certain (and I believe avoidable) conditions open data may lead to inequalities.  

 

These caveats aren't academic or cop outs -- rather they are the core of my argument which is that Open Data and Open Data advocates should pro-actively be making efforts to ensure that the non-neglible risk that Open Data MAY lead to social inequality is avoided.

 

A lot of my work in Community Informatics, and my recent work and writing and quite soon my research in Open Data will be looking to document precisely what interventions are most useful in ensuring that Open Data does NOT lead to otherwise avoidable inequalities/"data divides".

 

Best,

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Lenczner
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:08 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Regarding the question of whether open data increases inequalities - I think that we've had a full airing of views, a good discussion, and now we have a good sense of what each other think. I don't think we need to necessarily get into a debate about it anytime someone mentions it on the list. It's not like this mailing list is an public record of a shared opinion or agreed-upon resolution. Therefore I would suggest that no response is necessary if a person is repeats the same comment without developing their argument further.

Cheers,

Mike

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

I also think we should rise above tit-for-tat.

On 2012-06-17, at 11:11 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

James,

 

I happen to think that there is nothing less civil or more destructive of civil discourse than deliberately and for effect misquoting or quoting out of context as below (and not once but twice).  Those are the tactics of Fox News and their eco-system.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James McKinney
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <A href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target=_blank value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <A href="tel:[phone]" target=_blank value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[Michael Lenczner-2]

Thanks for the clarification, Michael. Sorry to misrepresent you. 

Cheers,

Michael Lenczner
CEO, Ajah
http://www.ajah.ca
514-400-4500
1-888-406-2524 (AJAH)
http://www.linkedin.com/in/michaellenczner

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 7:53 PM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Michael,

 

I don't want to start another round of this but I think it is important/useful that my position on this be very clear.

 

If your comments are meant to refer to mine please be aware that I don't believe that I have ever said that "open data increases inequalities"... What I've said is that under certain (and I believe avoidable) conditions open data may lead to inequalities.  

 

These caveats aren't academic or cop outs -- rather they are the core of my argument which is that Open Data and Open Data advocates should pro-actively be making efforts to ensure that the non-neglible risk that Open Data MAY lead to social inequality is avoided.

 

A lot of my work in Community Informatics, and my recent work and writing and quite soon my research in Open Data will be looking to document precisely what interventions are most useful in ensuring that Open Data does NOT lead to otherwise avoidable inequalities/"data divides".

 

Best,

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Lenczner
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:08 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Regarding the question of whether open data increases inequalities - I think that we've had a full airing of views, a good discussion, and now we have a good sense of what each other think. I don't think we need to necessarily get into a debate about it anytime someone mentions it on the list. It's not like this mailing list is an public record of a shared opinion or agreed-upon resolution. Therefore I would suggest that no response is necessary if a person is repeats the same comment without developing their argument further.

Cheers,

Mike

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

I also think we should rise above tit-for-tat.

On 2012-06-17, at 11:11 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

James,

 

I happen to think that there is nothing less civil or more destructive of civil discourse than deliberately and for effect misquoting or quoting out of context as below (and not once but twice).  Those are the tactics of Fox News and their eco-system.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James McKinney
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <a href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" value="[phone]" target="_blank">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[michael gurstein]

Tks Michael, that's being a Mensch :)

 

M 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Lenczner
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 6:40 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thanks for the clarification, Michael. Sorry to misrepresent you. 

Cheers,

Michael Lenczner
CEO, Ajah
http://www.ajah.ca
514-400-4500
1-888-406-2524 (AJAH)
http://www.linkedin.com/in/michaellenczner

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 7:53 PM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Michael,

 

I don't want to start another round of this but I think it is important/useful that my position on this be very clear.

 

If your comments are meant to refer to mine please be aware that I don't believe that I have ever said that "open data increases inequalities"... What I've said is that under certain (and I believe avoidable) conditions open data may lead to inequalities.  

 

These caveats aren't academic or cop outs -- rather they are the core of my argument which is that Open Data and Open Data advocates should pro-actively be making efforts to ensure that the non-neglible risk that Open Data MAY lead to social inequality is avoided.

 

A lot of my work in Community Informatics, and my recent work and writing and quite soon my research in Open Data will be looking to document precisely what interventions are most useful in ensuring that Open Data does NOT lead to otherwise avoidable inequalities/"data divides".

 

Best,

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Lenczner
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:08 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Regarding the question of whether open data increases inequalities - I think that we've had a full airing of views, a good discussion, and now we have a good sense of what each other think. I don't think we need to necessarily get into a debate about it anytime someone mentions it on the list. It's not like this mailing list is an public record of a shared opinion or agreed-upon resolution. Therefore I would suggest that no response is necessary if a person is repeats the same comment without developing their argument further.

Cheers,

Mike

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

I also think we should rise above tit-for-tat.

On 2012-06-17, at 11:11 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

James,

 

I happen to think that there is nothing less civil or more destructive of civil discourse than deliberately and for effect misquoting or quoting out of context as below (and not once but twice).  Those are the tactics of Fox News and their eco-system.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James McKinney
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <A href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target=_blank value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <A href="tel:[phone]" target=_blank value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

[Herb Lainchbury]

Hi Michael,

You said: "under certain (and I believe avoidable) conditions open data may lead to inequalities"

What conditions are you referring to?

You also said: "Open Data and Open Data advocates should pro-actively be making efforts..."

Do you feel that something specific is currently missing that would make a difference in advancing toward the goal of open data advocates?

Thank you,

H

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 4:53 PM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Michael,

 

I don't want to start another round of this but I think it is important/useful that my position on this be very clear.

 

If your comments are meant to refer to mine please be aware that I don't believe that I have ever said that "open data increases inequalities"... What I've said is that under certain (and I believe avoidable) conditions open data may lead to inequalities.  

 

These caveats aren't academic or cop outs -- rather they are the core of my argument which is that Open Data and Open Data advocates should pro-actively be making efforts to ensure that the non-neglible risk that Open Data MAY lead to social inequality is avoided.

 

A lot of my work in Community Informatics, and my recent work and writing and quite soon my research in Open Data will be looking to document precisely what interventions are most useful in ensuring that Open Data does NOT lead to otherwise avoidable inequalities/"data divides".

 

Best,

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Lenczner
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:08 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Regarding the question of whether open data increases inequalities - I think that we've had a full airing of views, a good discussion, and now we have a good sense of what each other think. I don't think we need to necessarily get into a debate about it anytime someone mentions it on the list. It's not like this mailing list is an public record of a shared opinion or agreed-upon resolution. Therefore I would suggest that no response is necessary if a person is repeats the same comment without developing their argument further.

Cheers,

Mike

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

I also think we should rise above tit-for-tat.

On 2012-06-17, at 11:11 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

James,

 

I happen to think that there is nothing less civil or more destructive of civil discourse than deliberately and for effect misquoting or quoting out of context as below (and not once but twice).  Those are the tactics of Fox News and their eco-system.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James McKinney
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <a href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" value="[phone]" target="_blank">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

--
Herb Lainchbury
Dynamic Solutions Inc.
www.dynamic-solutions.com
http://twitter.com/herblainchbury

[michael gurstein]

Hi Herb,

 

(I never thought you'ld ask :)

 

I've done a fairly large number of blogposts -- go to  http://gurstein.wordpress.com/ and do a search on "open data"...

 

And an academic paper http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/3316/2764

 

And given a variety of talks and interventions...

 

I'ld be delighted to discuss this with you (or anyone else) further either on or off line but to be clear I'm less concerned with "advancing the goal of open data advocates" than I am in advancing the goals of an inclusive, transparent, equitable and participative democracy through the use of "open data" among other ICT tools.

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Herb Lainchbury
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:05 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Hi Michael,

You said: "under certain (and I believe avoidable) conditions open data may lead to inequalities"

What conditions are you referring to?

You also said: "Open Data and Open Data advocates should pro-actively be making efforts..."

Do you feel that something specific is currently missing that would make a difference in advancing toward the goal of open data advocates?

Thank you,

H

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 4:53 PM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Michael,

 

I don't want to start another round of this but I think it is important/useful that my position on this be very clear.

 

If your comments are meant to refer to mine please be aware that I don't believe that I have ever said that "open data increases inequalities"... What I've said is that under certain (and I believe avoidable) conditions open data may lead to inequalities.  

 

These caveats aren't academic or cop outs -- rather they are the core of my argument which is that Open Data and Open Data advocates should pro-actively be making efforts to ensure that the non-neglible risk that Open Data MAY lead to social inequality is avoided.

 

A lot of my work in Community Informatics, and my recent work and writing and quite soon my research in Open Data will be looking to document precisely what interventions are most useful in ensuring that Open Data does NOT lead to otherwise avoidable inequalities/"data divides".

 

Best,

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Lenczner
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:08 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Regarding the question of whether open data increases inequalities - I think that we've had a full airing of views, a good discussion, and now we have a good sense of what each other think. I don't think we need to necessarily get into a debate about it anytime someone mentions it on the list. It's not like this mailing list is an public record of a shared opinion or agreed-upon resolution. Therefore I would suggest that no response is necessary if a person is repeats the same comment without developing their argument further.

Cheers,

Mike

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

I also think we should rise above tit-for-tat.

On 2012-06-17, at 11:11 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

James,

 

I happen to think that there is nothing less civil or more destructive of civil discourse than deliberately and for effect misquoting or quoting out of context as below (and not once but twice).  Those are the tactics of Fox News and their eco-system.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James McKinney
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <A href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" target=_blank value="[phone]">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <A href="tel:[phone]" target=_blank value="[phone]">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

--
Herb Lainchbury
Dynamic Solutions Inc.
www.dynamic-solutions.com
http://twitter.com/herblainchbury

[Herb Lainchbury]

Very good.  I will check it out.

Thanks Mike.

H

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:20 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Herb,

 

(I never thought you'ld ask :)

 

I've done a fairly large number of blogposts -- go to  http://gurstein.wordpress.com/ and do a search on "open data"...

 

And an academic paper http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/3316/2764

 

And given a variety of talks and interventions...

 

I'ld be delighted to discuss this with you (or anyone else) further either on or off line but to be clear I'm less concerned with "advancing the goal of open data advocates" than I am in advancing the goals of an inclusive, transparent, equitable and participative democracy through the use of "open data" among other ICT tools.

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Herb Lainchbury
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:05 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Hi Michael,

You said: "under certain (and I believe avoidable) conditions open data may lead to inequalities"

What conditions are you referring to?

You also said: "Open Data and Open Data advocates should pro-actively be making efforts..."

Do you feel that something specific is currently missing that would make a difference in advancing toward the goal of open data advocates?

Thank you,

H

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 4:53 PM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Michael,

 

I don't want to start another round of this but I think it is important/useful that my position on this be very clear.

 

If your comments are meant to refer to mine please be aware that I don't believe that I have ever said that "open data increases inequalities"... What I've said is that under certain (and I believe avoidable) conditions open data may lead to inequalities.  

 

These caveats aren't academic or cop outs -- rather they are the core of my argument which is that Open Data and Open Data advocates should pro-actively be making efforts to ensure that the non-neglible risk that Open Data MAY lead to social inequality is avoided.

 

A lot of my work in Community Informatics, and my recent work and writing and quite soon my research in Open Data will be looking to document precisely what interventions are most useful in ensuring that Open Data does NOT lead to otherwise avoidable inequalities/"data divides".

 

Best,

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Lenczner
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:08 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Regarding the question of whether open data increases inequalities - I think that we've had a full airing of views, a good discussion, and now we have a good sense of what each other think. I don't think we need to necessarily get into a debate about it anytime someone mentions it on the list. It's not like this mailing list is an public record of a shared opinion or agreed-upon resolution. Therefore I would suggest that no response is necessary if a person is repeats the same comment without developing their argument further.

Cheers,

Mike

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

I also think we should rise above tit-for-tat.

On 2012-06-17, at 11:11 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

James,

 

I happen to think that there is nothing less civil or more destructive of civil discourse than deliberately and for effect misquoting or quoting out of context as below (and not once but twice).  Those are the tactics of Fox News and their eco-system.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James McKinney
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernmentData Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Can we please resume some civility? I think we are all capable of rising above name-calling.

On 2012-06-17, at 10:43 AM, michael gurstein wrote:

David,

 

It appears that you may be spending too much time in national capitals and picking up the bad habits of the political bottom feeders who hang out there...

 

Selectively Rush Limbaugh dis-quoting aside, what I actually said was "I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."

 

And I agree that there is no direct evidence yet one way or the other although common sense suggests that if only a few people (because of language, wealth, position, gender etc.) have access and the ability to use a valuable resource then they will take advantage of that to further enrich/empower themselves.

 

Hence, the way that I presented the issue (here and elsewhere) as a potential risk/hypothesis to be tested rather than a "claim" to be asserted... and thankfully it looks like resources are going to be put in to do that testing...

 

My answer to your politicians (and I would be very interested to know specific names/nationalities) would not be to dismiss the issue but rather to indicate up front (and with resources) that there may be risks and those involved are well aware of these to the point that they are pro-actively ensuring that such circumstances don't arise by implementing inclusive policies from the beginning rather than after the fact. (which to go full circle was my basic point to the WB who have an overall responsibility to ensure inclusive development and have the resources to support this without in any way diminishing their broad support for OGD).

 

Anyone who argues against Open Data because it may be discriminatory is making a rather stupid argument -- "cutting off the nose to spite the face" -- or more likely out of an attitude of complete cynicism "finding any stick to beat a dog" -- and certainly not something that I would ever say (and don't believe).

 

But as I said earlier ... Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:35 AM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to InternationalOpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012,Washington DC, World Bank HQ

Thank you Michael for the clarification. It feels like there is a big leap between "being critical and aware of risks" (which I too am I favour of) and your original language which was that the "investment that they are making in OGD *will* have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's."
(stars are mine)

We actually don't have any evidence that it will or won't (im open to the possibility it might and that we need to engage that) and I occasionally meet policy makers who based on reading you, argue that because there *will* be inequalities, they should not do open data at all.

Sp this is greg to hear ans It seems we are on the same page. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-17, at 3:12 AM, michael gurstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

 

It would be a really good idea if you argued against what was actually written rather than present some distorted strawman that is convenient for you to attack. It is a rather cheap and unbecoming rhetorical trick.

 

And quite honestly I don't think it matters whether you "claim" something or not... the issue is what the effect of the investment that the WB is making and there I am very interested and hoping that they are recognizing some of the risks involved in what they are doing.  For example, funding external consultants to do OGD projects in LDC's where the outcome is in languages which are inaccessible to the majority of the local population will have the inevitable effect of advantaging those who do have access to those languages and disadvantaging those who don't.

 

Being a supporter of something (as I am of WB efforts to use OGD as a means to attack corruption) doesn't mean that one has to be uncritical or unaware (willfully or not) of potential risks.

 

M

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Eaves
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01 PM
To: civicaccess discuss
Cc: civicaccess discuss
Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Invitation to International OpenGovernment Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC,World Bank HQ

I find it somewhat warped that we can say the bank is actually *promoting* social, political and economic inequalities when, previously their data was only available to the large companies, countries and (few) non-profits could afford to buy their data. I dont think any of us long for a return to a world where the privileged few had access. 

I don't claim that there isn't still privilege, and that we have a collective responsibility to ensure enhance education but to claim that ogd has somehow increased inequality has, at present no evidence to support the claim and fairly weak logic. 

--

www.eaves.ca

@daeaves

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-06-16, at 9:33 PM, James McKinney <[hidden email]> wrote:

The conference is open to anyone, as far as I understand: http://www.data.gov/communities/conference

On 2012-06-16, at 9:11 PM, michael gurstein wrote:

I don't imagine that these invitations are that difficult to get...

 

I hope, but am not convinced, that the WB recognizes that they have a responsibility to ensure that OGD is inclusive while it is supporting transparency and accountability. If they aren't then the massive investment that they are making in OGD will have the effect of increasing social, economic and political inequalities in the LDC's.

 

http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/does-inclusion-matter-for-open-government-the-answer-is-very-much-indeed/

 

Tiny URL: http://wp.me/pJQl5-9f

 

M

 

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:15 AM
Subject: Invitation to International Open Government Data Conference, July 10-12th 2012, Washington DC, World Bank HQ
To: [hidden email]

Dear Michael  Gurstein,

As manager of the World Bank's Open Data Initiative, I'm pleased to attach an invitation to the International Open Government Data Conference, being held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington DC from July 10-12th, 2012.

The conference is being organized in partnership with the US Government's Data.gov team around the theme of "putting data to work." It promises to be an exciting and informative event, with high-level panels and keynotes alongside parallel track sessions on subjects such as open government data policies; open data technologies, platforms and standards; and creating ecosystems and citizen engagement around open data.

Please note that registration is required and spaces are limited - a draft agenda and registration information can be found at http://data.gov/conference.  If you have any questions or encounter difficulty, please contact Ms. Lulu Cheng at [hidden email] [hidden email] <a href="tel:%28%2B1-202-458-9338" value="[phone]" target="_blank">([phone]).  There is no charge to attend, but participants will need to meet their own travel and accommodation costs.

The conference will bring together the world's foremost experts on open government data for three days of practical and dynamic discussion -  I look forward to seeing you there.

(See attached file: 1World Bank IOGDC invitation 185.pdf)

Sincerely,

Neil Fantom

<2E447821.jpg>

Neil Fantom Manager, Open Data Initiative World Bank, 1818 H St. NW Washington, DC 20433 Tel: <a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank">202-473-3323 | [hidden email]| data.worldbank.org Twitter: @neilfantom and @worldbankdata

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

--
Herb Lainchbury
Dynamic Solutions Inc.
www.dynamic-solutions.com
http://twitter.com/herblainchbury

_______________________________________________
CivicAccess-discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss

--
Herb Lainchbury
Dynamic Solutions Inc.
www.dynamic-solutions.com
http://twitter.com/herblainchbury