Canada Post Legal Action
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FYI...This gets better by the moment!
http://m.torontosun.com/2012/04/13/canada-post-sues-to-keep-ownership-of-postal-code-list Canada Post sues to keep ownership of postal code list Sheena Goodyear Today at 11:33 AM Agency Files Can you copyright a postal code? Canada Post thinks so. The Crown corporation is suing a geocoding website for providing a free online database of Canadian postal codes, which it says infringes on its copyright. But Geolytica, which runs GeoCoder.ca, says it built its collection of postal codes without any help from Canada Post's official database. "This brings us here. Having to face a Crown corporation with deep pockets in Federal Court, over something we have created but which they believe otherwise," Geolytica founder Ervin Ruci wrote on the site's blog. "Fighting for principle is expensive, and we will do it." Canada Post charges companies approximately $5,500 a year for the same information. The statement of claim filed by Canada Post says it's losing potential clients and revenue. Canada Post spokeswoman Anick Losier wouldn't comment on the specifics of the case, but said the mail company depends on the revenue it gets from its database to recoup the costs of keeping it up to date. "We are not a federal department. We are a self-sustaining Crown corporation that relies on the revenues from the sale of its products and services," she said. "We deliver to 32 million Canadians every day. Each year, we create more than 200,000 new addresses, and countless others are changed or removed from the database. We also process 1.2 million change of address requests annually for Canadians who are moving from one residence to another "As you can imagine, we invest a significant amount of time, effort and money to maintain our address data, and ensure that it is clean and accurate. Only Canada Post has the breadth of network required to collect and update this information on a daily basis." Geolytica disagrees and says it used crowdsourcing to build its own databse, which means the information was generated by the site's own users and staff, not through Canada Post. "When you make a query to Geocoder containing, for example, this information '1435 Prince of Wales, Ottawa, ON K2C 1N5,' we then extract the postal code 'K2C 1N5' and insert it into the database that you may download for free on this website," Ruci explained. In its statement of defence, Geolytica also argues that postal codes are public data, not subject to copyright law. "Canadians regularly and frequently write their postal codes on letters in order to indicate their factual locations. Canadians also frequently enter their full street address, including their postal codes, into online forms — all in a similar manner to the way users enter their full street address at geocoder.ca. These activities constitute no infringement of copyright," the statement reads. On his blog, Canadian Internet and e-commerce expert Michael Geist said the lawsuit makes for "a fascinating case study on generating crowdsourced information." "The case could certainly generate some notable intervenors. For marketers that have independently developed and marketed their own databases that include postal code information, they could face similar copyright claims by Canada Post and may need to support GeoCoder," he said. "Given the government's emphasis on open data, the federal government may have something to say about Canada Post's efforts to restrict public compilation and distribution of postal code information." Geist is on the board for the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic, which is representing Geolytica against Canada Post. Geocoding turns street addresses into geographic co-ordinates, usually latitude and longitude, so they can be mapped. Social media services routinely use geocoding services to build maps or let people sign into locations on their phones. |
Re: Canada Post Legal Action
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I love when Canada post says "we're handling 1.2 millions of addresses changes". What's the link with the postal code db. Once I've already discussed with someone working there; the real golden data set is the full address database. Postal codes are secondary in terms of incomes... It really looks like a defensive move to avoid further "crowdsourcing"/retro-engineering of their data set. On Apr 13, 2012 2:51 PM, "Harvey Low" <[hidden email]> wrote:
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That's funny that CP also mentions that they are creating the addresses...
I work for a regional district and "I" alone manage the civic addresses for our region. It's huge, but I get it done with a good GIS system in place, and at no cost to the applicant because I am obligated to assign them as per the 911 Service in the area.
This information in turn gets 'shared' with CP, emergency services, utilities - by us twice a year. Maybe we should charge them for all my hard work and labour, but how open of a government would we be if that started to happen?
I'm really curious how much they are creating, or is does that number reflect the addresses they receive, then have to 'merge' with their existing dataset... If they are receiving data more or less, than they are also crowd-sourcing.
I'm going to follow this case closely. Donovan
2012/4/13 Stéphane Guidoin <[hidden email]>
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Re: Canada Post Legal Action
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So, I was wondering -- what would it take to have a groklaw-style
response to this lawsuit? Do we have the same kind of access to the proceedings as there is south of the border? On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Donovan Cameron <[hidden email]> wrote: > That's funny that CP also mentions that they are creating the addresses... > > I work for a regional district and "I" alone manage the civic addresses for > our region. It's huge, but I get it done with a good GIS system in place, > and at no cost to the applicant because I am obligated to assign them as per > the 911 Service in the area. > > This information in turn gets 'shared' with CP, emergency services, > utilities - by us twice a year. Maybe we should charge them for all my hard > work and labour, but how open of a government would we be if that started to > happen? > I'm really curious how much they are creating, or is does that number > reflect the addresses they receive, then have to 'merge' with their existing > dataset... > If they are receiving data more or less, than they are also crowd-sourcing. > > I'm going to follow this case closely. > > > Donovan > > > 2012/4/13 Stéphane Guidoin <[hidden email]> >> >> I love when Canada post says "we're handling 1.2 millions of addresses >> changes". What's the link with the postal code db. >> >> Once I've already discussed with someone working there; the real golden >> data set is the full address database. Postal codes are secondary in terms >> of incomes... It really looks like a defensive move to avoid further >> "crowdsourcing"/retro-engineering of their data set. >> >> On Apr 13, 2012 2:51 PM, "Harvey Low" <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> FYI...This gets better by the moment! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://m.torontosun.com/2012/04/13/canada-post-sues-to-keep-ownership-of-postal-code-list >>> >>> >>> >>> Canada Post sues to keep ownership of postal code list >>> >>> >>> >>> Sheena Goodyear >>> >>> Today at 11:33 AM >>> >>> Agency Files >>> >>> Can you copyright a postal code? Canada Post thinks so. >>> >>> >>> >>> The Crown corporation is suing a geocoding website for providing a free >>> online database of Canadian postal codes, which it says infringes on its >>> copyright. >>> >>> >>> >>> But Geolytica, which runs GeoCoder.ca, says it built its collection of >>> postal codes without any help from Canada Post's official database. >>> >>> >>> >>> "This brings us here. Having to face a Crown corporation with deep >>> pockets in Federal Court, over something we have created but which they >>> believe otherwise," Geolytica founder Ervin Ruci wrote on the site's blog. >>> "Fighting for principle is expensive, and we will do it." >>> >>> >>> >>> Canada Post charges companies approximately $5,500 a year for the same >>> information. The statement of claim filed by Canada Post says it's losing >>> potential clients and revenue. >>> >>> >>> >>> Canada Post spokeswoman Anick Losier wouldn't comment on the specifics of >>> the case, but said the mail company depends on the revenue it gets from its >>> database to recoup the costs of keeping it up to date. >>> >>> >>> >>> "We are not a federal department. We are a self-sustaining Crown >>> corporation that relies on the revenues from the sale of its products and >>> services," she said. >>> >>> >>> >>> "We deliver to 32 million Canadians every day. Each year, we create more >>> than 200,000 new addresses, and countless others are changed or removed from >>> the database. We also process 1.2 million change of address requests >>> annually for Canadians who are moving from one residence to another >>> >>> >>> >>> "As you can imagine, we invest a significant amount of time, effort and >>> money to maintain our address data, and ensure that it is clean and >>> accurate. Only Canada Post has the breadth of network required to collect >>> and update this information on a daily basis." >>> >>> >>> >>> Geolytica disagrees and says it used crowdsourcing to build its own >>> databse, which means the information was generated by the site's own users >>> and staff, not through Canada Post. >>> >>> >>> >>> "When you make a query to Geocoder containing, for example, this >>> information '1435 Prince of Wales, Ottawa, ON K2C 1N5,' we then extract the >>> postal code 'K2C 1N5' and insert it into the database that you may download >>> for free on this website," Ruci explained. >>> >>> >>> >>> In its statement of defence, Geolytica also argues that postal codes are >>> public data, not subject to copyright law. >>> >>> >>> >>> "Canadians regularly and frequently write their postal codes on letters >>> in order to indicate their factual locations. Canadians also frequently >>> enter their full street address, including their postal codes, into online >>> forms — all in a similar manner to the way users enter their full street >>> address at geocoder.ca. These activities constitute no infringement of >>> copyright," the statement reads. >>> >>> >>> >>> On his blog, Canadian Internet and e-commerce expert Michael Geist said >>> the lawsuit makes for "a fascinating case study on generating crowdsourced >>> information." >>> >>> >>> >>> "The case could certainly generate some notable intervenors. For >>> marketers that have independently developed and marketed their own databases >>> that include postal code information, they could face similar copyright >>> claims by Canada Post and may need to support GeoCoder," he said. >>> >>> >>> >>> "Given the government's emphasis on open data, the federal government may >>> have something to say about Canada Post's efforts to restrict public >>> compilation and distribution of postal code information." >>> >>> >>> >>> Geist is on the board for the Canadian Internet Policy and Public >>> Interest Clinic, which is representing Geolytica against Canada Post. >>> >>> >>> >>> Geocoding turns street addresses into geographic co-ordinates, usually >>> latitude and longitude, so they can be mapped. Social media services >>> routinely use geocoding services to build maps or let people sign into >>> locations on their phones. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss -- Have fun, Christian http://linkedin.christianlavoie.net "I won't let you fall apart." |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Guidoin
Le 13 avr. 2012 à 15:19, Stéphane Guidoin a écrit : > Once I've already discussed with someone working there; the real golden data set is the full address database. Even this. The thing is that if the Postcode has been created by Post Canada. At least the address system is *not*. What is the history of Postcode in Canada? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_codes_in_Canada =============================================================== "Numbered postal zones were first used in Toronto in 1925[5] and arrived in other Canadian cities by the 1940s." — "Numbers Designate New Postal Zones." Toronto Star. July 23, 1925 pg. 3 As of 1943, the City of Toronto was divided into 14 zones, numbered from 1 to 15, except that 7 and 11 were unused, and there was a 2B zone.[6] In the late 1960s, the Post Office began implementing a 3-digit zone number scheme in major cities to replace existing 1- and 2-digit zone numbers.[7] For example, zones numbered from 100 to 799 were assigned throughout Metropolitan Toronto, with a goal of sorting mail addresses into smaller districts. Toronto's renumbering took effect 1 May 1969, accompanied by an advertising campaign under the slogan "Your number is up".[8] The system was introduced during 1968 in Calgary, Edmonton, Hamilton, Montreal, and Windsor. Besides Toronto, the system was to have expanded in 1969 to London, Ottawa, Quebec City, and Vancouver.[8] With impending plans for a national postal code system, Postmaster General Eric Kierans announced that the Post Office would begin cancelling the new 3-digit city zone system. Companies changed their mail addressing at their own expense only to find the new zoning would prove to be short-lived.[9] =============================================================== THEN =============================================================== Implementation In February 1970, Communications Minister Eric Kierans announced that a six-character postal code would be introduced, beginning with a test in the City of Ottawa on 1 April 1971 led by John E.J. Carisse, Canada's first Postal Code Officer.[13] Coding of Ottawa was followed by a provincial-level rollout of the system in Manitoba, and the system was gradually implemented in the rest of the country from 1972 to 1974.[12] The rollout was marked by a large advertising campaign, costing approximately C$545,000.[14] The introduction of such a code system allowed Canada Post to easily speed up, as well as simplify, the flow of mail in the country. However, when the automated sorting system was initially conceived, the Canadian Union of Postal Workers and other relevant unions objected to it, mainly because the wages of those who ran the new automated machines were much lower than those who had hand-sorted mail. The unions ended up staging job action and public information campaigns, with the message that they did not want people and business to use postal codes on their mail. 20 March 1974 was declared "boycott the postal code day" and the union promised that letters without postal codes would be given preferential service.[15] Eventually the unions started being compensated once the automated system was put into use and eventually generating significant revenue for Canada Post. The boycott was called off in February 1976.[16] One 1975 Toronto ad generated controversy by showing a man writing a postal code on the bottom of a thonged woman with the ditty We're not 'stringing' you along/Use postal codes—you'll 'thing our 'thong'/Don't be cheeky—you've all got 'em/Please include them on the bottom. The ad ran only once before being accused of sexism by NDP MP John Rodriguez. Postmaster General Bryce Mackasey later apologized for it.[17] =============================================================== NOW I can imagine something more radical. If Post Canada is too strict about post codes I wonder if citizen can decide of another system that they put on their envelops :) Something that would be simpler to write and remember :) -- Karl Dubost Montréal, QC, Canada http://www.la-grange.net/karl/ |
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