BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19
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BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19
 
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http://opendatasummit.ca/
-- Tracey P. Lauriault Post Doctoral Fellow Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre
_______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption?
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Hello Civic Access Adovcates,
Our requests for the source of the quotes provided by the Ministry of Labour, Citizens' Services, and Open Government to assert the "integrity" of BC Statistics population estimation/projection methods were denied... "Please be advised the records you requested are withheld in their entirety pursuant to section 16 (Disclosure harmful to intergovernmental relations or negotiations) of FOIPPA." http:\\www.wminfomatics.com\WP\Articles\120622\FOI_STC_Finance.pdf Strange, how it is that not providing sources of quotes can be justified, FOIPPA or not? Such is an example of the lack of integrity. Population numbers are the denominators for many social and economic measures. May I suggest, insist on reproducing population numbers. Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:17:53 -0700 (MST) Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19 http://opendatasummit.ca/ -- Tracey P. Lauriault Post Doctoral Fellow Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault http://datalibre.ca/ 613-234-2805 _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption?
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Sorry Warren;
Was this something related to the Summit? On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Warren Munroe <[hidden email]> wrote: Hello Civic Access Adovcates, -- Tracey P. Lauriault Post Doctoral Fellow Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre
_______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption?
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Hi Tracey,
Are you wondering if meetings about Open Data (Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19) have anything to do with discussions that may reveal corruption? Please recall ... Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Can. Gov. Executive: Open data is bringing light to corruption On Feb 18, 2013 6:28 AM, "Tracey P. Lauriault" <[hidden email]> wrote: http://www.canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/category/item/1141-open-data-is-bringing-light-to-corruption.html May I suggest that the more open our discussion about how BC's Official Statistical Agency, BC Statistics creates the numbers they disseminate, the less likely that a small groups of people in positions of government authority will withhold information (citing disclosure harmfull) while disseminating incorrect information (Community members addressing public school closures and Statisitcs Canada doing an assessment for Finance Canada were given incorrect methods and numbers). http://www.wminfomatics.com/WP/Articles/121019/STC_MLCS_2.pdf Isn't it amazing that BC Statistics changed the population methods many times between 2001 and 2011 without pubishing the changes? As you can appreciate these numbers are used by small groups of people to justify opening and closing public, and private, facilities including public schools of which nearly 200 were closed between 2001 and 2011. I find it interesting that we can read about corruption in statistical agencies in China and Greece, but that we don't talk about it here. Hopefully the increased discussion about the real methods used by BC Stats will result in more reliable information. Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:35:20 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Sorry Warren; Was this something related to the Summit? On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Warren Munroe <[hidden email]>wrote: > Hello Civic Access Adovcates, > > Our requests for the source of the quotes provided by the Ministry of > Labour, Citizens' Services, and Open Government to assert the "integrity" > of BC Statistics population estimation/projection methods were denied... > > "Please be advised the records you requested are withheld in their > entirety pursuant to section 16 (Disclosure harmful to intergovernmental > relations or negotiations) of FOIPPA." > > http:\\www.wminfomatics.com\WP\Articles\120622\FOI_STC_Finance.pdf > > Strange, how it is that not providing sources of quotes can be justified, > FOIPPA or not? Such is an example of the lack of integrity. > > Population numbers are the denominators for many social and economic > measures. May I suggest, insist on reproducing population numbers. > > > Warren > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> > To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> > Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:17:53 -0700 (MST) > Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19 > > http://opendatasummit.ca/ > > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > Post Doctoral Fellow > Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre > https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault > http://datalibre.ca/ > 613-234-2805 > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss > -- Tracey P. Lauriault Post Doctoral Fellow Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault http://datalibre.ca/ 613-234-2805 _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption?
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Please: either reply to the original thread or start a new thread with
the appropriate subject line. Thanks, Glen On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Warren Munroe <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Tracey, > > Are you wondering if meetings about Open Data (Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19) have anything to do with discussions that may reveal corruption? > > Please recall ... > > Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Can. Gov. Executive: Open data is bringing light to corruption > On Feb 18, 2013 6:28 AM, "Tracey P. Lauriault" <[hidden email]> wrote: > http://www.canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/category/item/1141-open-data-is-bringing-light-to-corruption.html > > May I suggest that the more open our discussion about how BC's Official Statistical Agency, BC Statistics creates the numbers they disseminate, the less likely that a small groups of people in positions of government authority will withhold information (citing disclosure harmfull) while disseminating incorrect information (Community members addressing public school closures and Statisitcs Canada doing an assessment for Finance Canada were given incorrect methods and numbers). http://www.wminfomatics.com/WP/Articles/121019/STC_MLCS_2.pdf > > Isn't it amazing that BC Statistics changed the population methods many times between 2001 and 2011 without pubishing the changes? As you can appreciate these numbers are used by small groups of people to justify opening and closing public, and private, facilities including public schools of which nearly 200 were closed between 2001 and 2011. > > I find it interesting that we can read about corruption in statistical agencies in China and Greece, but that we don't talk about it here. > > Hopefully the increased discussion about the real methods used by BC Stats will result in more reliable information. > > > Warren > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> > To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> > Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:35:20 -0700 (MST) > Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? > > Sorry Warren; > > Was this something related to the Summit? > > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Warren Munroe <[hidden email]>wrote: > >> Hello Civic Access Adovcates, >> >> Our requests for the source of the quotes provided by the Ministry of >> Labour, Citizens' Services, and Open Government to assert the "integrity" >> of BC Statistics population estimation/projection methods were denied... >> >> "Please be advised the records you requested are withheld in their >> entirety pursuant to section 16 (Disclosure harmful to intergovernmental >> relations or negotiations) of FOIPPA." >> >> http:\\www.wminfomatics.com\WP\Articles\120622\FOI_STC_Finance.pdf >> >> Strange, how it is that not providing sources of quotes can be justified, >> FOIPPA or not? Such is an example of the lack of integrity. >> >> Population numbers are the denominators for many social and economic >> measures. May I suggest, insist on reproducing population numbers. >> >> >> Warren >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> >> To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> >> Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:17:53 -0700 (MST) >> Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19 >> >> http://opendatasummit.ca/ >> >> -- >> Tracey P. Lauriault >> Post Doctoral Fellow >> Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre >> https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault >> http://datalibre.ca/ >> 613-234-2805 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> > > > > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > Post Doctoral Fellow > Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre > https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault > http://datalibre.ca/ > 613-234-2805 > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss -- - http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/ - _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption?
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Hi Glen,
Regarding BC Open Data Summit: The first lines on the BC Open Data Summit website are ... "Organizations have realized the benefits of openness. Many have open data projects in the works. They are solving a number of challenges - legal, privacy, technical and resourcing issues - that have emerged, and they are developing best practices in response to the challenges. The summit provides a forum for sharing these practices and solutions" May I suggest that the Ministry responsible for Open Government (did anyone mention anything about BC Government data? if not, perhaps we should) be required to provide sources for their quotes, as well as be required to provide the correct methods used to create data they disseminate, as addresses "best practices". As mentioned, currectly this is not the case. Indeed, requests for the methods and also sources of the quotes used to assert the integrity of the data disseminated by the Ministry responsible for Open Government can and are denied. I hope that "best practices" includes providing the methods and the source of quotes, and that these issues are being discussed at the annual BC Open Data Summits and by other Open Data advocates. Are these issues being discussed at the BC Open Data Summits and by other Open Data advocates? Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Newton <[hidden email]> To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> Sent: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:29:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Please: either reply to the original thread or start a new thread with the appropriate subject line. Thanks, Glen On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Warren Munroe <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Tracey, > > Are you wondering if meetings about Open Data (Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19) have anything to do with discussions that may reveal corruption? > > Please recall ... > > Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Can. Gov. Executive: Open data is bringing light to corruption > On Feb 18, 2013 6:28 AM, "Tracey P. Lauriault" <[hidden email]> wrote: > http://www.canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/category/item/1141-open-data-is-bringing-light-to-corruption.html > > May I suggest that the more open our discussion about how BC's Official Statistical Agency, BC Statistics creates the numbers they disseminate, the less likely that a small groups of people in positions of government authority will withhold information (citing disclosure harmfull) while disseminating incorrect information (Community members addressing public school closures and Statisitcs Canada doing an assessment for Finance Canada were given incorrect methods and numbers). http://www.wminfomatics.com/WP/Articles/121019/STC_MLCS_2.pdf > > Isn't it amazing that BC Statistics changed the population methods many times between 2001 and 2011 without pubishing the changes? As you can appreciate these numbers are used by small groups of people to justify opening and closing public, and private, facilities including public schools of which nearly 200 were closed between 2001 and 2011. > > I find it interesting that we can read about corruption in statistical agencies in China and Greece, but that we don't talk about it here. > > Hopefully the increased discussion about the real methods used by BC Stats will result in more reliable information. > > > Warren > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> > To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> > Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:35:20 -0700 (MST) > Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? > > Sorry Warren; > > Was this something related to the Summit? > > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Warren Munroe <[hidden email]>wrote: > >> Hello Civic Access Adovcates, >> >> Our requests for the source of the quotes provided by the Ministry of >> Labour, Citizens' Services, and Open Government to assert the "integrity" >> of BC Statistics population estimation/projection methods were denied... >> >> "Please be advised the records you requested are withheld in their >> entirety pursuant to section 16 (Disclosure harmful to intergovernmental >> relations or negotiations) of FOIPPA." >> >> http:\\www.wminfomatics.com\WP\Articles\120622\FOI_STC_Finance.pdf >> >> Strange, how it is that not providing sources of quotes can be justified, >> FOIPPA or not? Such is an example of the lack of integrity. >> >> Population numbers are the denominators for many social and economic >> measures. May I suggest, insist on reproducing population numbers. >> >> >> Warren >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> >> To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> >> Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:17:53 -0700 (MST) >> Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19 >> >> http://opendatasummit.ca/ >> >> -- >> Tracey P. Lauriault >> Post Doctoral Fellow >> Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre >> https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault >> http://datalibre.ca/ >> 613-234-2805 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> > > > > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > Post Doctoral Fellow > Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre > https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault > http://datalibre.ca/ > 613-234-2805 > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss -- - http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/ - _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption?
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Excellent point, but one minor quibble... "May I suggest that the Ministry responsible for Open Government (did anyone mention anything about BC Government data? if not, perhaps we should) be required to provide sources for their quotes"…Wouldn't it be better if the injunction were to require all Ministries presenting statistics as part of broader policy discussions (or whatever) to give the "provenance" of the statistics in question, i.e. the source and the method of analysis used to derive the statistical statement? In fact, wouldn't this be a very useful proposal to make as part of broader open government data advocacy? M -----Original Message----- Hi Glen, Regarding BC Open Data Summit: The first lines on the BC Open Data Summit website are ... "Organizations have realized the benefits of openness. Many have open data projects in the works. They are solving a number of challenges - legal, privacy, technical and resourcing issues - that have emerged, and they are developing best practices in response to the challenges. The summit provides a forum for sharing these practices and solutions" May I suggest that the Ministry responsible for Open Government (did anyone mention anything about BC Government data? if not, perhaps we should) be required to provide sources for their quotes, as well as be required to provide the correct methods used to create data they disseminate, as addresses "best practices". As mentioned, currectly this is not the case. Indeed, requests for the methods and also sources of the quotes used to assert the integrity of the data disseminated by the Ministry responsible for Open Government can and are denied. I hope that "best practices" includes providing the methods and the source of quotes, and that these issues are being discussed at the annual BC Open Data Summits and by other Open Data advocates. Are these issues being discussed at the BC Open Data Summits and by other Open Data advocates? Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Newton <[hidden email]> To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> Sent: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:29:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Please: either reply to the original thread or start a new thread with the appropriate subject line. Thanks, Glen On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Warren Munroe <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Tracey, > > Are you wondering if meetings about Open Data (Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19) have anything to do with discussions that may reveal corruption? > > Please recall ... > > Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Can. Gov. Executive: Open data is bringing > light to corruption On Feb 18, 2013 6:28 AM, "Tracey P. Lauriault" <[hidden email]> wrote: > http://www.canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/category/item/1141-open-data > -is-bringing-light-to-corruption.html > > May I suggest that the more open our discussion about how BC's > Official Statistical Agency, BC Statistics creates the numbers they > disseminate, the less likely that a small groups of people in > positions of government authority will withhold information (citing > disclosure harmfull) while disseminating incorrect information > (Community members addressing public school closures and Statisitcs > Canada doing an assessment for Finance Canada were given incorrect > methods and numbers). > http://www.wminfomatics.com/WP/Articles/121019/STC_MLCS_2.pdf > > Isn't it amazing that BC Statistics changed the population methods many times between 2001 and 2011 without pubishing the changes? As you can appreciate these numbers are used by small groups of people to justify opening and closing public, and private, facilities including public schools of which nearly 200 were closed between 2001 and 2011. > > I find it interesting that we can read about corruption in statistical agencies in China and Greece, but that we don't talk about it here. > > Hopefully the increased discussion about the real methods used by BC Stats will result in more reliable information. > > > Warren > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> > To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> > Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:35:20 -0700 (MST) > Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? > > Sorry Warren; > > Was this something related to the Summit? > > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Warren Munroe <[hidden email]>wrote: > >> Hello Civic Access Adovcates, >> >> Our requests for the source of the quotes provided by the Ministry of >> Labour, Citizens' Services, and Open Government to assert the "integrity" >> of BC Statistics population estimation/projection methods were denied... >> >> "Please be advised the records you requested are withheld in their >> entirety pursuant to section 16 (Disclosure harmful to >> intergovernmental relations or negotiations) of FOIPPA." >> >> http:\\www.wminfomatics.com\WP\Articles\120622\FOI_STC_Finance.pdf >> >> Strange, how it is that not providing sources of quotes can be >> justified, FOIPPA or not? Such is an example of the lack of integrity. >> >> Population numbers are the denominators for many social and economic >> measures. May I suggest, insist on reproducing population numbers. >> >> >> Warren >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tracey P. Lauriault <[hidden email]> >> To: civicaccess discuss <[hidden email]> >> Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:17:53 -0700 (MST) >> Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19 >> >> >> -- >> Tracey P. Lauriault >> Post Doctoral Fellow >> Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre >> https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault >> 613-234-2805 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> > > > > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > Post Doctoral Fellow > Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre > https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault > 613-234-2805 > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss -- - - _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption?
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Yes Michael, I agree ... it would be better if the injunction were …
"to require all Ministries presenting statistics as part of broader policy discussions (or whatever) to give the "provenance" of the statistics in question, i.e. the source and the method of analysis used to derive the statistical statement." Thank you for the refinements. Regarding our requests for proper sourcing of quotes and methods from the Ministry of Labour, Citizens' Services and Open Government, responsible for BC's Official Statistical Agency, BC Statistics, the BC Auditor General agrees ... "The concern that you raise about quality assurance interests us because it is one of the key indicators for organizations whose work must be credible as a source for others to rely on." (December 4, 2012). Also, I agree this would be "a very useful proposal to make as part of broader open government data advocacy?" How would you suggest that this proposal be put forward? Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: michael gurstein <[hidden email]> To: 'civicaccess discuss' <[hidden email]>, [hidden email] Sent: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:23:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Excellent point, but one minor quibble... "May I suggest that the Ministry responsible for Open Government (did anyone mention anything about BC Government data? if not, perhaps we should) be required to provide sources for their quotes".Wouldn't it be better if the injunction were to require all Ministries presenting statistics as part of broader policy discussions (or whatever) to give the "provenance" of the statistics in question, i.e. the source and the method of analysis used to derive the statistical statement? In fact, wouldn't this be a very useful proposal to make as part of broader open government data advocacy? M -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Warren Munroe Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:53 AM To: civicaccess discuss Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Hi Glen, Regarding BC Open Data Summit: The first lines on the BC Open Data Summit website are ... "Organizations have realized the benefits of openness. Many have open data projects in the works. They are solving a number of challenges - legal, privacy, technical and resourcing issues - that have emerged, and they are developing best practices in response to the challenges. The summit provides a forum for sharing these practices and solutions" May I suggest that the Ministry responsible for Open Government (did anyone mention anything about BC Government data? if not, perhaps we should) be required to provide sources for their quotes, as well as be required to provide the correct methods used to create data they disseminate, as addresses "best practices". As mentioned, currectly this is not the case. Indeed, requests for the methods and also sources of the quotes used to assert the integrity of the data disseminated by the Ministry responsible for Open Government can and are denied. I hope that "best practices" includes providing the methods and the source of quotes, and that these issues are being discussed at the annual BC Open Data Summits and by other Open Data advocates. Are these issues being discussed at the BC Open Data Summits and by other Open Data advocates? Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Newton < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> To: civicaccess discuss < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> Sent: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:29:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Please: either reply to the original thread or start a new thread with the appropriate subject line. Thanks, Glen On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Warren Munroe < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Tracey, > > Are you wondering if meetings about Open Data (Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19) have anything to do with discussions that may reveal corruption? > > Please recall ... > > Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Can. Gov. Executive: Open data is bringing > light to corruption On Feb 18, 2013 6:28 AM, "Tracey P. Lauriault" < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> wrote: > <http://www.canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/category/item/1141-open-data> http://www.canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/category/item/1141-open-data > -is-bringing-light-to-corruption.html > > May I suggest that the more open our discussion about how BC's > Official Statistical Agency, BC Statistics creates the numbers they > disseminate, the less likely that a small groups of people in > positions of government authority will withhold information (citing > disclosure harmfull) while disseminating incorrect information > (Community members addressing public school closures and Statisitcs > Canada doing an assessment for Finance Canada were given incorrect > methods and numbers). > <http://www.wminfomatics.com/WP/Articles/121019/STC_MLCS_2.pdf> http://www.wminfomatics.com/WP/Articles/121019/STC_MLCS_2.pdf > > Isn't it amazing that BC Statistics changed the population methods many times between 2001 and 2011 without pubishing the changes? As you can appreciate these numbers are used by small groups of people to justify opening and closing public, and private, facilities including public schools of which nearly 200 were closed between 2001 and 2011. > > I find it interesting that we can read about corruption in statistical agencies in China and Greece, but that we don't talk about it here. > > Hopefully the increased discussion about the real methods used by BC Stats will result in more reliable information. > > > Warren > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tracey P. Lauriault < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> > To: civicaccess discuss < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> > Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:35:20 -0700 (MST) > Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? > > Sorry Warren; > > Was this something related to the Summit? > > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Warren Munroe < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]>wrote: > >> Hello Civic Access Adovcates, >> >> Our requests for the source of the quotes provided by the Ministry of >> Labour, Citizens' Services, and Open Government to assert the "integrity" >> of BC Statistics population estimation/projection methods were denied... >> >> "Please be advised the records you requested are withheld in their >> entirety pursuant to section 16 (Disclosure harmful to >> intergovernmental relations or negotiations) of FOIPPA." >> >> http:\\www.wminfomatics.com\WP\Articles\120622\FOI_STC_Finance.pdf >> >> Strange, how it is that not providing sources of quotes can be >> justified, FOIPPA or not? Such is an example of the lack of integrity. >> >> Population numbers are the denominators for many social and economic >> measures. May I suggest, insist on reproducing population numbers. >> >> >> Warren >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tracey P. Lauriault < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> >> To: civicaccess discuss < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> >> Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:17:53 -0700 (MST) >> Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19 >> >> <http://opendatasummit.ca/> http://opendatasummit.ca/ >> >> -- >> Tracey P. Lauriault >> Post Doctoral Fellow >> Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre >> <https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault> https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault >> <http://datalibre.ca/> http://datalibre.ca/ >> 613-234-2805 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] >> <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> > > > > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > Post Doctoral Fellow > Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre > <https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault> https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault > <http://datalibre.ca/> http://datalibre.ca/ > 613-234-2805 > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] > <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss -- - <http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/> http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/ - _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption?
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Good question Warren, I'm not really sure but the civil society component of the Open Government Partnership (OGP) initiative at the Federal level could take this on as one of the issue areas it might want to pursue.
M -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Warren Munroe Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 5:31 PM To: civicaccess discuss Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Yes Michael, I agree ... it would be better if the injunction were … "to require all Ministries presenting statistics as part of broader policy discussions (or whatever) to give the "provenance" of the statistics in question, i.e. the source and the method of analysis used to derive the statistical statement." Thank you for the refinements. Regarding our requests for proper sourcing of quotes and methods from the Ministry of Labour, Citizens' Services and Open Government, responsible for BC's Official Statistical Agency, BC Statistics, the BC Auditor General agrees ... "The concern that you raise about quality assurance interests us because it is one of the key indicators for organizations whose work must be credible as a source for others to rely on." (December 4, 2012). Also, I agree this would be "a very useful proposal to make as part of broader open government data advocacy?" How would you suggest that this proposal be put forward? Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: michael gurstein <[hidden email]> To: 'civicaccess discuss' <[hidden email]>, [hidden email] Sent: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:23:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Excellent point, but one minor quibble... "May I suggest that the Ministry responsible for Open Government (did anyone mention anything about BC Government data? if not, perhaps we should) be required to provide sources for their quotes".Wouldn't it be better if the injunction were to require all Ministries presenting statistics as part of broader policy discussions (or whatever) to give the "provenance" of the statistics in question, i.e. the source and the method of analysis used to derive the statistical statement? In fact, wouldn't this be a very useful proposal to make as part of broader open government data advocacy? M -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Warren Munroe Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:53 AM To: civicaccess discuss Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Hi Glen, Regarding BC Open Data Summit: The first lines on the BC Open Data Summit website are ... "Organizations have realized the benefits of openness. Many have open data projects in the works. They are solving a number of challenges - legal, privacy, technical and resourcing issues - that have emerged, and they are developing best practices in response to the challenges. The summit provides a forum for sharing these practices and solutions" May I suggest that the Ministry responsible for Open Government (did anyone mention anything about BC Government data? if not, perhaps we should) be required to provide sources for their quotes, as well as be required to provide the correct methods used to create data they disseminate, as addresses "best practices". As mentioned, currectly this is not the case. Indeed, requests for the methods and also sources of the quotes used to assert the integrity of the data disseminated by the Ministry responsible for Open Government can and are denied. I hope that "best practices" includes providing the methods and the source of quotes, and that these issues are being discussed at the annual BC Open Data Summits and by other Open Data advocates. Are these issues being discussed at the BC Open Data Summits and by other Open Data advocates? Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Newton < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> To: civicaccess discuss < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> Sent: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:29:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Please: either reply to the original thread or start a new thread with the appropriate subject line. Thanks, Glen On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Warren Munroe < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Tracey, > > Are you wondering if meetings about Open Data (Re: > [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19) have anything to do with discussions that may reveal corruption? > > Please recall ... > > Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Can. Gov. Executive: Open data is bringing > light to corruption On Feb 18, 2013 6:28 AM, "Tracey P. Lauriault" < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> wrote: > > <http://www.canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/category/item/1141-open-dat > a> http://www.canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/category/item/1141-open-data > -is-bringing-light-to-corruption.html > > May I suggest that the more open our discussion about how BC's > Official Statistical Agency, BC Statistics creates the numbers they > disseminate, the less likely that a small groups of people in > positions of government authority will withhold information (citing > disclosure harmfull) while disseminating incorrect information > (Community members addressing public school closures and Statisitcs > Canada doing an assessment for Finance Canada were given incorrect > methods and numbers). > <http://www.wminfomatics.com/WP/Articles/121019/STC_MLCS_2.pdf> http://www.wminfomatics.com/WP/Articles/121019/STC_MLCS_2.pdf > > Isn't it amazing that BC Statistics changed the population methods > many times between 2001 and 2011 without pubishing the changes? As you can appreciate these numbers are used by small groups of people to justify opening and closing public, and private, facilities including public schools of which nearly 200 were closed between 2001 and 2011. > > I find it interesting that we can read about corruption in statistical agencies in China and Greece, but that we don't talk about it here. > > Hopefully the increased discussion about the real methods used by BC > Stats will result in more reliable information. > > > Warren > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tracey P. Lauriault < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> > To: civicaccess discuss < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> > Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:35:20 -0700 (MST) > Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. > 19, reveals corruption? > > Sorry Warren; > > Was this something related to the Summit? > > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Warren Munroe < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]>wrote: > >> Hello Civic Access Adovcates, >> >> Our requests for the source of the quotes provided by the Ministry of >> Labour, Citizens' Services, and Open Government to assert the "integrity" >> of BC Statistics population estimation/projection methods were denied... >> >> "Please be advised the records you requested are withheld in their >> entirety pursuant to section 16 (Disclosure harmful to >> intergovernmental relations or negotiations) of FOIPPA." >> >> http:\\www.wminfomatics.com\WP\Articles\120622\FOI_STC_Finance.pdf >> >> Strange, how it is that not providing sources of quotes can be >> justified, FOIPPA or not? Such is an example of the lack of integrity. >> >> Population numbers are the denominators for many social and economic >> measures. May I suggest, insist on reproducing population numbers. >> >> >> Warren >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tracey P. Lauriault < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> >> To: civicaccess discuss < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> >> Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:17:53 -0700 (MST) >> Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19 >> >> <http://opendatasummit.ca/> http://opendatasummit.ca/ >> >> -- >> Tracey P. Lauriault >> Post Doctoral Fellow >> Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre >> <https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault> https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault >> <http://datalibre.ca/> http://datalibre.ca/ >> 613-234-2805 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] >> <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> > > > > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > Post Doctoral Fellow > Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre > <https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault> https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault > <http://datalibre.ca/> http://datalibre.ca/ > 613-234-2805 > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] > <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss -- - <http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/> http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/ - _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
Re: BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption?
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Hi Michael,
Yes, agreed, the "civil society component of the Open Government Partnership (OGP) initiative at the Federal level" is another approach. Statistics Canada and Finance Canada have been informed as well. Not that it needs saying, but the more people who talk about, understand, advocate, and ensure best practices, the better. Best practices for BC's Ministry of Labour, Citizens' Services, and Open Government, along with Ministries across Canada should include providing correct methods, as well as, providing sources of quotes. By supporting such efforts, we help improve the reliablity of the government, tax funded statistics. Step by step, Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: michael gurstein <[hidden email]> To: 'civicaccess discuss' <[hidden email]> Cc: [hidden email] Sent: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 04:08:12 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Good question Warren, I'm not really sure but the civil society component of the Open Government Partnership (OGP) initiative at the Federal level could take this on as one of the issue areas it might want to pursue. M -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Warren Munroe Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 5:31 PM To: civicaccess discuss Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Yes Michael, I agree ... it would be better if the injunction were … "to require all Ministries presenting statistics as part of broader policy discussions (or whatever) to give the "provenance" of the statistics in question, i.e. the source and the method of analysis used to derive the statistical statement." Thank you for the refinements. Regarding our requests for proper sourcing of quotes and methods from the Ministry of Labour, Citizens' Services and Open Government, responsible for BC's Official Statistical Agency, BC Statistics, the BC Auditor General agrees ... "The concern that you raise about quality assurance interests us because it is one of the key indicators for organizations whose work must be credible as a source for others to rely on." (December 4, 2012). Also, I agree this would be "a very useful proposal to make as part of broader open government data advocacy?" How would you suggest that this proposal be put forward? Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: michael gurstein <[hidden email]> To: 'civicaccess discuss' <[hidden email]>, [hidden email] Sent: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:23:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Excellent point, but one minor quibble... "May I suggest that the Ministry responsible for Open Government (did anyone mention anything about BC Government data? if not, perhaps we should) be required to provide sources for their quotes".Wouldn't it be better if the injunction were to require all Ministries presenting statistics as part of broader policy discussions (or whatever) to give the "provenance" of the statistics in question, i.e. the source and the method of analysis used to derive the statistical statement? In fact, wouldn't this be a very useful proposal to make as part of broader open government data advocacy? M -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Warren Munroe Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:53 AM To: civicaccess discuss Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Hi Glen, Regarding BC Open Data Summit: The first lines on the BC Open Data Summit website are ... "Organizations have realized the benefits of openness. Many have open data projects in the works. They are solving a number of challenges - legal, privacy, technical and resourcing issues - that have emerged, and they are developing best practices in response to the challenges. The summit provides a forum for sharing these practices and solutions" May I suggest that the Ministry responsible for Open Government (did anyone mention anything about BC Government data? if not, perhaps we should) be required to provide sources for their quotes, as well as be required to provide the correct methods used to create data they disseminate, as addresses "best practices". As mentioned, currectly this is not the case. Indeed, requests for the methods and also sources of the quotes used to assert the integrity of the data disseminated by the Ministry responsible for Open Government can and are denied. I hope that "best practices" includes providing the methods and the source of quotes, and that these issues are being discussed at the annual BC Open Data Summits and by other Open Data advocates. Are these issues being discussed at the BC Open Data Summits and by other Open Data advocates? Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Newton < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> To: civicaccess discuss < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> Sent: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:29:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19, reveals corruption? Please: either reply to the original thread or start a new thread with the appropriate subject line. Thanks, Glen On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Warren Munroe < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Tracey, > > Are you wondering if meetings about Open Data (Re: > [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19) have anything to do with discussions that may reveal corruption? > > Please recall ... > > Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] Can. Gov. Executive: Open data is bringing > light to corruption On Feb 18, 2013 6:28 AM, "Tracey P. Lauriault" < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> wrote: > > <http://www.canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/category/item/1141-open-dat > a> http://www.canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/category/item/1141-open-data > -is-bringing-light-to-corruption.html > > May I suggest that the more open our discussion about how BC's > Official Statistical Agency, BC Statistics creates the numbers they > disseminate, the less likely that a small groups of people in > positions of government authority will withhold information (citing > disclosure harmfull) while disseminating incorrect information > (Community members addressing public school closures and Statisitcs > Canada doing an assessment for Finance Canada were given incorrect > methods and numbers). > <http://www.wminfomatics.com/WP/Articles/121019/STC_MLCS_2.pdf> http://www.wminfomatics.com/WP/Articles/121019/STC_MLCS_2.pdf > > Isn't it amazing that BC Statistics changed the population methods > many times between 2001 and 2011 without pubishing the changes? As you can appreciate these numbers are used by small groups of people to justify opening and closing public, and private, facilities including public schools of which nearly 200 were closed between 2001 and 2011. > > I find it interesting that we can read about corruption in statistical agencies in China and Greece, but that we don't talk about it here. > > Hopefully the increased discussion about the real methods used by BC > Stats will result in more reliable information. > > > Warren > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tracey P. Lauriault < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> > To: civicaccess discuss < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> > Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:35:20 -0700 (MST) > Subject: Re: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. > 19, reveals corruption? > > Sorry Warren; > > Was this something related to the Summit? > > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Warren Munroe < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]>wrote: > >> Hello Civic Access Adovcates, >> >> Our requests for the source of the quotes provided by the Ministry of >> Labour, Citizens' Services, and Open Government to assert the "integrity" >> of BC Statistics population estimation/projection methods were denied... >> >> "Please be advised the records you requested are withheld in their >> entirety pursuant to section 16 (Disclosure harmful to >> intergovernmental relations or negotiations) of FOIPPA." >> >> http:\\www.wminfomatics.com\WP\Articles\120622\FOI_STC_Finance.pdf >> >> Strange, how it is that not providing sources of quotes can be >> justified, FOIPPA or not? Such is an example of the lack of integrity. >> >> Population numbers are the denominators for many social and economic >> measures. May I suggest, insist on reproducing population numbers. >> >> >> Warren >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tracey P. Lauriault < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> >> To: civicaccess discuss < <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]> >> Sent: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:17:53 -0700 (MST) >> Subject: [CivicAccess-discuss] BC Open Data Summit Vancouver Feb. 19 >> >> <http://opendatasummit.ca/> http://opendatasummit.ca/ >> >> -- >> Tracey P. Lauriault >> Post Doctoral Fellow >> Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre >> <https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault> https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault >> <http://datalibre.ca/> http://datalibre.ca/ >> 613-234-2805 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CivicAccess-discuss mailing list >> <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] >> <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss >> > > > > -- > Tracey P. Lauriault > Post Doctoral Fellow > Geomatics and Cartographic Research Centre > <https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault> https://gcrc.carleton.ca/confluence/display/GCRCWEB/Lauriault > <http://datalibre.ca/> http://datalibre.ca/ > 613-234-2805 > > _______________________________________________ > CivicAccess-discuss mailing list > <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] > <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss -- - <http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/> http://zzzoot.blogspot.com/ - _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email] <http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss> http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss _______________________________________________ CivicAccess-discuss mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.pwd.ca/mailman/listinfo/civicaccess-discuss |
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